Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

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joebro391
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Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby joebro391 » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:01 pm

Just had an amazing training session, working on technique from shorts runs. i forgot my spikes at home, but my friend lent me his, so only the first 2 jumps, am i wearing flats (is that a british term?? "flats"?? hahaha, nevermind :P )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSAhn3lcY1w

the Jumps are as follows:
1. Pole: 13' 140
Grip: 11'9
Run: 3 Lefts from 39'9
Bungee: 10'
2. Pole: 13' 140
Grip: 12'1
Run: 3 Lefts from 40'
Bungee 10'
3. Pole: 13' 150
Grip: 12'6
Run: 3 Lefts from 40'3
Bungee: 10'
4. Pole: 13' 150
Grip: 12'6
Run: 3 Lefts from 40'3
Bungee: 12'6
5. Pole: 13' 140
Grip: 12'6
Run: 3 Lefts from 40'3
Bungee: 13'
6. Pole: 13' 140
Grip: 12'6
Run: 3 Lefts from 40'3
Bungee: 13'

and i'm still weighing 130lbs at 5'7

PS: i liked the last one, best. i guess i work better in the dark ;)
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Re: Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:46 am

6P,

Keep working on the highbar to develop your trail leg swing! It 's starting to look really nice! :yes:

I think you should keep doing short runs for awhile, until you start clearing 13'+ consistently. It's not really the bar height that you should worry about - that's just your reward for good technique. You're almost there! Just focus on your technique.

If you're going to be taking these vids regularly, start doing a few things to improve their quality ...

1. Don't film in the dark! This time, I'm not advising you for safety reasons. I'm just saying that it's bad quality video. :no:

2. Film from the exact same spot on every vault, on every day. Measure it and mark it. This spot should be roughly square to your takeoff point - say about 10' from the lip of the box. The videographer should be back far enough to catch the details of your entire vault without having to pan the camera much (except during your run).

3. Needless to say, don't try to film thru the trees! ha! ha! No one would ever be that silly, would they? Would they? ??? :)

4. It was a good idea for you to tell us your exact pole, grip, run length, and bungee height. That really helps us to understand the differences from one jump to the next. If you want to get really fancy, maybe you could put that on your vid, just before each attempt. If you don't want to mess with video editting, you can do this in the low-tech way, just by writing the specs on an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper, then filming that for a few secs before each attempt. Just use a thick felt pen. You could nail it to that damn tree! (OK, I admit it - I'm old fashioned!)

5. Just for fun, you could make a "title page" with another sheet of paper. Call it "6-PACK 10-9-2008" or something like that! ha! ha! :D

6. Don't jump in the dark. Oh, did I already tell you that? :P

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby joebro391 » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:33 am

KirkB wrote:6P,

Keep working on the highbar to develop your trail leg swing! It 's starting to look really nice! :yes:

I think you should keep doing short runs for awhile, until you start clearing 13'+ consistently. It's not really the bar height that you should worry about - that's just your reward for good technique. You're almost there! Just focus on your technique.


yea, i'm gonna spend the next few weeks, on short runs, working on technique. i'm gonna try and do the right thing hehe :P

if you're going to be taking these vids regularly, start doing a few things to improve their quality ...

1. Don't film in the dark! This time, I'm not advising you for safety reasons. I'm just saying that it's bad quality video


yea, once again, sorry about that )= i got strait after school, and it's a hour and a half drive, so by the end of practice, it's night time )= FORTUNATELY, i'm going up this sunday, early in the day! so it'll be bright the whole time!! haha

2. Film from the exact same spot on every vault, on every day. Measure it and mark it. This spot should be roughly square to your takeoff point - say about 10' from the lip of the box. The videographer should be back far enough to catch the details of your entire vault without having to pan the camera much (except during your run).

3. Needless to say, don't try to film thru the trees! ha! ha! No one would ever be that silly, would they? Would they? ???


...yea...i don't know what my coach was thinking hahahaha

4. It was a good idea for you to tell us your exact pole, grip, run length, and bungee height. That really helps us to understand the differences from one jump to the next. If you want to get really fancy, maybe you could put that on your vid, just before each attempt. If you don't want to mess with video editting, you can do this in the low-tech way, just by writing the specs on an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper, then filming that for a few secs before each attempt. Just use a thick felt pen. You could nail it to that damn tree! (OK, I admit it - I'm old fashioned!)


i'll tell you what, i'll make the next one, all nice and facny, just for you haha :yes:

but thanks for all the tips. i was really working on driving up with the chest and swining LONG. i noticed that i was stalling on some of them, but that might just have been cause i was on a stiff pole near the end of practice {shrugs} so yea, keep the feedback coming and i'll have more footage sunday!! -6P :D
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Re: Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby joebro391 » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:31 pm

oh, i just notice that i was pulling on some of the jumps :no: . more so the first few (probably cause the pole was just so soft [hence, why i went up in rating]) than the lest few

Also, i think i was also a tad under (like 3-6 inches). i just wanted to point that stuff out. {nods}
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Re: Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby powerplant42 » Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:36 pm

Your drive off of the pole is a little late, because you don't swing 'back' far enough... watch Brian's one and two step videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe6R4-BwL7U&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlfCaVPlxmw

He doesn't 'pike' like you do after the swing, because he's already upside down. You get into the dreaded V position, where you need to be in I position, driving your shoulders down and your hips up... 'shooting', as KB would put it. Remember, when the pole is at its maximum bend, you should be more or less upside down.
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Re: Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby joebro391 » Fri Oct 10, 2008 6:27 pm

powerplant42 wrote:Your drive off of the pole is a little late, because you don't swing 'back' far enough...


could you clarify what you mean by "drive off the pole" ?? if you mean, driving the right knee, up, high and hard, then yea, i agree. i'd just like to make sure we're on the same page :yes:


He doesn't 'pike' like you do after the swing, because he's already upside down. You get into the dreaded V position, where you need to be in I position, driving your shoulders down and your hips up... 'shooting', as KB would put it. [/qoute]

ah, i feel what you're saying but brian doesn't 'pike' because he is a 'tuck and shooter', while i'm privey to the 'swing to invert' method, that bubka and tarasov used.

BUT...i DO LOVE brian's take-off, drive and swing. It's just plain sexy haha :D

Remember, when the pole is at its maximum bend, you should be more or less upside down.


and...unless you mean "in the tucked position", i feel that it's a tad impossible to be upside down when the pole is at it's maximum bend. look at mack, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVzmjDwKRHk

he's not fully inverted until the pole is almost completely recoiled. perhaps i'm misunderstanding you again. you think you could find a video of someone completely upside down when the pole is at it's maximum bend?
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Re: Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:41 pm

powerplant42 wrote: He doesn't 'pike' like you do after the swing, because he's already upside down. You get into the dreaded V position, where you need to be in I position, driving your shoulders down and your hips up... 'shooting', as KB would put it. Remember, when the pole is at its maximum bend, you should be more or less upside down.


PP’s main point here is that you’re stuck in the “V” position – your hips are way too low after your swing, even tho your feet are quite high. That’s even worse than a “tuck/shoot” position, because at least tuck/shooters have their hips up higher, and are ready to “shoot”.

I have to be careful with the word “shoot” here, because my usage of the word (derived from back in the 1970s) isn’t the same as “shoot” in the tuck/shoot sense. I apologize for this confusion in terminology, but it’s so ingrained in my thinking that I find it hard to express myself without talking about “shooting”.

So my “shooting” is in the sense of a “shoot to a handstand” on a highbar – in a continuous chain from the swing. It has very little in common to a tuck/shoot. I didn’t even know what that was back in my day!

Take a look at Post #4 and #5 on the Bryde Bend thread here:
http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15483

You will see that my hips are fairly high in relation to my CoG (Center of Gravity). Compare this to your “V” position, and you may see why you’re “stuck” in the “V”. YOUR CoG is right in the crotch of your “V” – which is right above YOUR crotch! And your hips aren’t moving very fast at all. Once you get stuck there, it’s hard to recover, because you’ve already let the pole get ahead of you.

As PP inferred, in my model (a variant of the Petrov model) I’ve already inverted, and I’m well ahead of the pole (i.e. I haven’t let the recoil of the pole get ahead of me). So the pole can recoil all it wants, and by being in control of the situation (as per the pic), I’m able to not only “ride” the natural recoil of the pole, but keep adding additional energy into it – by straightening into the “I” position. This ACCELERATES my ascent skywards. This is what I call “shooting”, just like shooting to a handstand on a highbar. Notice that this isn’t a perfect “I” position YET, as PP implies. Rather, it’s moving rapidly TOWARDS the “I” position.

I think where PP slightly misled you is that he said that you should be almost inverted at max pole bend – as you pass the chord. That’s not true. Instead, I would explain it this way (and as I commonly do, I ask you to relate it to similar drills on the highbar) …

When you Whip thru the bottom of your swing (just before you pass the chord of the pole), your trail leg should be swinging/hinging so quickly that you’ll feel a “whipping” sensation at the bottom of your swing. Just before this maximum Whip point, your trail leg is swinging long its fastest. Just after this max Whip point, your trail leg kind of “snaps” or “whips” in time with the pole (or highbar), such that it “pops” your entire body TOWARDS an upside down position (but not quite as quickly as PP was saying. However, he did say “more or less”).

Try this on the highbar, before you try it on the pole. Just after the Whip, do you feel your body become somewhat weightless? “More or less” weightless? This is the sensation I’m talking about, and I think it’s also what PP was thinking about. When your body is “weightless”, that’s the time to quickly get inverted – by hanging back with your shoulders whilst your hips and legs rise. If the swing is done correctly (and your swing is getting there, 6P), then you’ll feel this sensation.

So back to what PP was saying, it’s not that you’re already inverted, it’s just that your body has become “more or less” weightless and you’re able to easily rotate to an inverted position without a lot of resistance from your body weight. The pic you see of me on Post #5 is the outcome of my quick swing/hinge/whip/snap.

And the way you need to look at the pic in Post #5 isn’t that I’m “stuck” in this position. Instead, my hips are rapidly rising, and this is just a snapshot in the middle of this rapid rising of the hips. If this was video and we stopped it frame-by-frame, you’d see that my hips are quickly and constantly rising, right thru to the pic in Post #6.

Now to compare that to you being stuck in the “V”, if we looked at your vid frame-by-frame, we’d see that you’re stuck in that “V” for quite a few frames – too many frames. Actually, NONE of my frames would ever show me in a “V”. My hips are bent to their max in Post #5.

Do you see now? I’m sure that PP had this in mind in his post above – he just didn’t explain it as thoroughly as I’ve just done.

And to correct you on Brian and his vid, Brian is NOT a tuck/shooter! He gets upside down very early, and keeps his hips moving. I saw him do this at the Alki Beach Vault, and I’ve watched his vids too, so please don’t think he tucks/shoots. He swings to an invert in a continuous chain – like Bubka.

Also like Bubka, Brian does a “slink” to get upside down, but that’s a fairly minor style difference. The main point is that he inverts early – same as me. Brian’s hips start out fairly low, but he slinks out of it, whereas your “V” position is so extreme that it’s hard to recover.

If you’re unfamiliar with the Slinky Toy, you can see it in action here: http://inventors.about.com/od/sstartinventions/ss/Physics_Illustr.htm

I use the word “slink” in this context – the context of how the curvature of the back “slinks” (curls) up from the hips to the shoulders, as the vaulter extends up the pole. Bubka does it on some of his bad vaults. Brian Mondschein does it regularly. So does Lukyanenko.

Having said all that, don’t expect to correct just this one fault. Trace it back to the takeoff and swing. Get that going even better than it is now, and the Whip/Extend part of your vault will start happening quite well – even without you realizing it much!

If you fix the bottom half of your vault, the top half will fix itself! In other words, if you Whip to this weightless feeling I speak of, the rest of you vault will be very, very easy. There will be no struggle to muscle your way out of the “V”.

If anything above is too detailed or too technical, I apologize. I just get the feeling that you study the vault quite closely, so you can handle all the detail. Let me know if I’ve confused you with any of it.

Kirk Bryde
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Re: Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby powerplant42 » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:22 pm

Maybe we can discuss the whole 'upside down at max bend' another time, most likely in the 'Advanced' forum. :yes:

But, if that truly is 'detrimental', I still would not worry about it for you... what I mean by that is, that if you try to swing/extend quickly enough to achieve this, you will not quite get there, but you will be vaulting better. Does that make sense? That was sort of an awkward sentence.

For the most part, I find myself in agreement with KB's previous post! A rare occurrence! Take a picture, quick! :D
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Re: Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby joebro391 » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:41 pm

okay, okay, i'm about 95% sure that i understand now :yes: but just to clarify, kirk, you said:

KirkB wrote: Now to compare that to you being stuck in the “V”, if we looked at your vid frame-by-frame, we’d see that you’re stuck in that “V” for quite a few frames – too many frames. Actually, NONE of my frames would ever show me in a “V”. My hips are bent to their max in Post #5.


when you said "bent to their max" do you mean, before that point, or after that point, or...???

are you saying i should "roll the hips up, faster and harder", in short??

as for the 'V' position, i'll see if i can rate my jumps accordingly to the 'V' position and you 2 can either agree or disagree haha

Jump 1: Not too bad
Jump 2: horrible 'V' (but i did pull down)
Jump 3: pretty bad 'V'
Jump 4: not too good but with a minor recovery haha
Jump 5: not too bad
Jump 6: least amount of...'V-ness" of them all haha

about right?? but at least i understand what you mean now

so yea, if you guys saw anything in paticular that made you say "yea, that's a factor as to him moving into that position" what tips might you be able to give me?? i got a big one in PP's post, but just incase there was something small, like i broke at the hips too early or pointed my toe in the wrong direction, let me know :yes:

i said it once, i'll say it again, i love you guys :heart: . thanks for all the help {nods}. -6P

AAAHHH, i just picked up something. i just noticed that i was BREAKING AT THE HIPS, EARLY, opposed to "swinging long". oddly enough, i swung long, best, on the second jump, where i had the worst 'V' (could that just mean that i was slow??) and the last jump, i didn't break too early. let me know if that fits into the equation much :yes:
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Re: Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby VTechVaulter » Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:17 am

woah.... little odd to see my name mentioned in technical discussion as i don't feel i should be emulated just quite yet.

in terms of my personal thought, my sequence has become (in the jumps you have watched).

shift hands fast and early, drive them high before contact. be stepping through aggressively before the pole hits the box. continue "stepping through" after initial contact. continue to drive chest to underneath the bottem arm. whipping leg timed with moving right hand to right hip iniates the swing and keeps hips moving through the middle of the jump. my leg bends a bit to create rotational speed in order to catch the pole. on dilemma for tall guys is unless you swing reallly fast its hard to keep a trail leg straight throughout. this ability is what made tarasov such an incredible technician. my focus this fall however has been on the first "phase" which is being aggressive and putting energy into the system through the take off. as i become better at this. i will focus more on swinging to vertical without that bent leg roll in the middle. i dont consider it a tuck either as i swing my trail leg well past the cord and dont just kick towards the bar.

heres a new video uploaded just for this thread. pause it at various points and i hope you can see what im going for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwZRZVKnHAM


in terms of joes jumping

i would like to see more of the driving the arms hard and high (not out) to help take off some of the shock at take off. if he can do this, then the whipping swing will be much more natural and timed to the point where it can be a continuous swing. the "shock" at take off makes it look like the swing is an accident. and then he sits to wait for the pole to catch up, and then tries to drop his shoulders at the last minute. So again to reiterate. drive hands high, drive chest in, and swing.. it also helps to think about "rolling the pelvis up" after you swing through the cord. sometimes if you swing just your feet you wind up in that dreaded V that kirkb was talking about.
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Re: Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:54 am

6P, it's getting late and I've had a long day, so I don't have the energy to analyze your vids tonight, but just very quickly, I'd like to comment on one thing you asked about. VTV also commented on this ...

joebro391 wrote:when you said "bent to their max" do you mean, before that point, or after that point, or...???

are you saying i should "roll the hips up, faster and harder", in short

I mean that I don't bend my hips any more than what you see in the pic - before or after. After the pic, my hips straighten as I rise up to the "I" position, so definitely not after. Before the pic, I hinged my trail leg in the early part of my Whip, but once I passed the chord, I broke at the hips a little bit, but not much. No more than what you see in the Post #5 pic.

Think of starting in the "C" position (which I call the Split position in my Bryde Bend - an extreme "C"), then momentarily swinging thru long (so your body is hanging straight under the pole or highbar in an upright "I" position for an instant), then Whipping to let's call it a "reverse C", where you've broken at the hips, but not any more than you see in Post #5.

"roll the hips up" ... well, I think that's what VTV is saying, which is what I call "slinking", but that's not how I did it. I had already generated enough momentum thru my swing that my hips just kind of popped up quite quickly, without rolling. But if you're unable to get that speed thru your Whip, then perhaps "rolling the hips up" or "slinking" or "rolling the pelvis up" (as VTV describes it) is the best thing for you to do.

I will just say this: The faster you swing/whip, the quicker you'll invert, and the less you'll have to "roll the pelvis up". So Ideally, the best solution is to have a faster swing with a more powerful whip at the bottom of the swing, but since you're not there yet, in the meantime you should roll your pelvis like VTV does.

I think that's the best advice, but I'm not 100% certain of this. Perhaps PP or VTV can comment, or perhaps I can take a deeper look once I see your vids again. I also need to look at VTV's vids again. (I might have the same advice for him too!)

joebro391 wrote: AAAHHH, i just picked up something. i just noticed that i was BREAKING AT THE HIPS, EARLY, opposed to "swinging long". oddly enough, i swung long, best, on the second jump, where i had the worst 'V' (could that just mean that i was slow??) and the last jump, i didn't break too early. let me know if that fits into the equation much

Yes, you're getting the idea now. So once you Whip, the idea is to keep the hips moving up along with the legs. Breaking at the hips is fine - momentarily after you feel the Whip, but you're exagerating that too much - to the point of continuing your Hinge right thru to the "V" position. Instead, once you pass the chord, let your hips rise along with your legs. As I've said before, you really need to learn this on the highbar, to get the hang of it.

VTechVaulter wrote:So again to reiterate. drive hands high, drive chest in, and swing.. it also helps to think about "rolling the pelvis up" after you swing through the cord. sometimes if you swing just your feet you wind up in that dreaded V that kirkb was talking about.

6P, you will notice that the language used by myself, PP, and VTV is all different. You're just going to have to get used to our different ways of talking about technique. The important thing, tho, is that we're all essentially giving you very similar advice.

What VTV refers to as "rolling the pelvis up" is what I referred to as "slinking". And he's right - you're just hinging at the hips, which means that your hips stay too low, even though you have a rather nice looking swing. You need to START your swing by just hinging at the hips, but as you pass the chord, that hinge needs to change to more of a full-body swing, where your hips rise along with your feet. You pretty much nailed that flaw in your quoted statement above.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Jumps I'm finally happy with haha 10-9-08

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:32 am

I think that you should take a break from your typical practice...

Come in to 2 steps. Use a pole that you could only realistically use from your full run if you were 2 m/s faster and 30 pounds heavier (you get the idea, a big'un). Do Jagodins for a little while, focusing on an early plant and a powerful drive-knee. Then you can move on to a drill that I call SITs (swing, invert, turn)... I believe that if I tell you why this is not a full vault, it could compromise the drill. Just 2 steps, jump, and SIT. (If others are curious, they can PM me.) I can clear around 11'ish from two steps on a stiff pole in the sand. Beat me on the pit! (But don't have a bar/bungie up for 90% of the time... this is basically for the same reason why a 'SIT' is not a full vault. Perhaps I'm being ridiculous, but I would like to experiment with you...) Then, after maybe 10 repetitions of 2 step SITs, move back to 3 step Jagodins. After 10 of those, 10 3 step SITs. Now move back to 6. 3 Jagodins, 5 SITs. That's enough for one practice... That should carry you well into the night, which you seem to love so very much! (Unless of course, you start in the morning/noon-time.)

By the way, KB, I find it very difficult not to 'slink' from short runs (as does VTV appear to) from the lack of run-swing energy... I know that not 'slinking' is possible from short runs (it has to be), but how? Grip lower? Use a particular size pole? What? How were you able to (not) do it? Were you even able to? When will that short run post be rearing its most likely beautiful head? Is that too many questions!? :)
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