PP42's Senior Year Training Blog

[kcvault]

What the three things KB mentioned have in common is none of them help you get better. A goal of jumping 14ft in a month when you have not even gotten on a pit is ridiculous. (In fact if you jump 13-6 it will be a miracle. Not because it's not possible for you to jump that high but your not ready. Personally my goal for my first meet is not to NH. Set goals that are attainable, like 12 feet for your first meet. Gripping to high all the time, and going from 11-6 to 14-4 do nothing but create bad habits, will stroking your ego at the same time.) So what do all these things have in common, they should not be done, your mentality need to change to get better.

---Kasey

[powerplant42]

We'll see about 14'. I won't be devastated if I don't jump it right off the bat, but I won't be too happy. I'll be pleased if I PR, but... I'd much rather jump 14'!

It's my goal for the first meet. I will do my best to reach it. I'm confident that I will.

KB, I'll grade myself soon... I have a lot of homework which I haven't started yet.

(BTW, I got into college... Haven't applied yet, but Mount St. Mary's president had a good talk with me and says he's going to give me a great offer to go there over Villanova. He didn't even know that I was an athlete! Even more $ probably. Good stuff. So I think I'll be there for undergrad. Anyone know the coach?)

[VaultPurple]

The reason you go farther into the pit by not swinging up is exactly what KB said. The higher your body goes, the more energy you use.

The simple physics of this are proved through conservation of energy.

Where Kinetic Energy is 1/2MV^2 and Potential Energy is MGH (M=Mass, V=Velocity, G=Acceleartion due to Gravity)

The total potential and kinetic energy must be equal at take off and at your max height.

So.

1/2MV^2 + MGH = 1/2MV^2 + MGH

So if a vaulter ways 70kg, and runs 9.8m/s we can determine their max height when they stall out versus if they are still moving into the pit.

To simplify the equation just use the vaulters height at take off to equal 0 (really should be center of mass)

1/2(70)(9.8)^2 + (70)(9.8)(0) = 1/2(70)(0)^2 + (70)(9.8)(H)
3361.4 + 0 = 0 + 686H
H = 3361.4/686
H = 4.90meters

So 4.9 meters is the max height a vaulter can reach if he were to stall the pole out and decrease its velocity to 0m/s (and this does not take in account any additional input due to jump or swing)

Now if the vaulter swung through and inverted and came off the top of the pole and jumped 5.4m you could use the same equation to find the amount of extra speed it would require.


1/2(70)(V)^2 + (70)(9.8)(0) = 1/2(70)(0)^2 + (70)(9.8)(5.4)
35V^2 + 0 = 0 + 3704.4
V^2 = 105.84
V = 10.288m/s

Now if the vaulter is able to swing and finish his vault and jump 5.4 but his pole stalls out when this happens you can figure out how much faster his pole would have traveled into the pit had he not swung up but only went 4.9meters.

1/2(70)(10.288)^2 + (70)(10.288)(0) = 1/2(70)(V)^2 + (70)(9.8)(4.9)
3704.5 + 0 = 1/2(70)(V)^2 + 3361.4
343.1 = 1/2(70)V^2
V^2 = 9.8m/s
V = 3.13m/s

Where the velocity of 3.13m/s is the speed the vaulter is traveling at max height.

What this is showing is that if a vaulter just jumps and does not finish his vault then he will keep the pole moving at 3.13m/s (7mph) into the pit and only jump 4.9m, but if the vaulter finishes the vault and jumps 5.4m he will stall out at the top of the top of his jump (which will most likely be over the box).

This is where the argument comes in that the swing and finishing of the vault adds energy (which i believe it does). But in terms of physics, if the vaulter was running the same 10.288m/s and jumped 5.40m but wanted to move the pole into the pit at the same speed he did with his jagodin (3.13m/s), he would have to add an additional 342.89Joules (1/2MV^2 with the 3.13m/s) with his swing through and inversion. The only debate is if someone can generate that much energy or not. And to put that in English terms, 342.89 joules is the same amount of energy required to move 252.7 pounds one foot (foot pounds).

And I do not think that much energy can be generated by finishing the vault (at least not in a straight pole drill)



ps. I know that running 10.288m/s will allow you to jump much higher than 5.4m and move the pole into the pit, but these examples are done using a height of 0 for the vaulter, so it would be significantly higher if the vaulters height was used. Just keeping the math simple...

[rainbowgirl28]

We'll see about 14'. I won't be devastated if I don't jump it right off the bat, but I won't be too happy. I'll be pleased if I PR, but... I'd much rather jump 14'!

It's my goal for the first meet. I will do my best to reach it. I'm confident that I will.

It's not the worst goal in the world, but you need to be willing to take baby steps to get there. Unless you have been clearing 12'+ crossbars (real bars not bungees) in practice, you should open no higher than 10'. If you make 12' (a PR!) you should go no bigger than 6" increments.

Even if you are jumping great and booming the bar with lots of height, your body has to get used to everything and get a feel for making a bar at those heights. Every jump gives you a chance to continue to improve technique and make the right adjustments for grip and pole.

If you don't think your body can handle that many jumps, then you need to rethink your goals. You have a LONG season ahead of you. If you only have the legs/back to get 10 jumps in, and 10 jumps gets you 12'6, then you would have a 1' PR which is still awesome and sets you on track toward 14'.

14' is a fine goal, but let yourself enjoy all of the PRs in-between. I am afraid that in your head you are already a 14' vaulter and won't be happy with anything less. That's unfortunate because there is a lot of joy in between where you are and where you want to be. I remember every single PR I have ever achieved. Maybe you will get all of those PRs in your first meet and maybe it will take a few months. Don't be that guy who wins the competition and sets a new PR and is angry and a bad sport because he didn't get what he wanted.

[rainbowgirl28]

(BTW, I got into college... Haven't applied yet, but Mount St. Mary's president had a good talk with me and says he's going to give me a great offer to go there over Villanova. He didn't even know that I was an athlete! Even more $ probably. Good stuff. So I think I'll be there for undergrad. Anyone know the coach?)

They are talking to you for academic reasons. 11'6 is not going to get you any money. 14' is not going to get you any money. There is a limit to how much scholarship money a school can give male track athletes. An academic scholarship is way better than an athletic one anyway, it's more secure. It's easier to keep your grades up than it is to stay healthy and perform well for 4-5 years (athletic scholarships are a year-to-year thing).

[kcvault]

This is what I have noticed from my experience about rolling a pole further when staying right side up. In the time I have been pole vaulting I have almost always been able to roll a pole further when staying right side up. I have done this with a lot of bottom arm pressure forcing the pole to bend down to me. Though I get into the pit I get stuck on the top because the pole is not accelerating but simple recoiling from me bending it. If the pole was not flexible I would be back on the ground instantly. When someone swings a trail leg it accelerates the pole and the bend rolls upward instead of coming down to you resulting in a big push off at the top with a lot of bar clearance not only at the top but also in front and behind the bar. I am also starting to notice in practices where the main focus is my swing I can always land further in the pit on a vault then I can staying right side up. However in my experience with Annie she has zero bottom arm pressure. When she is on her competition poles I will never have her take a jump where she stays right side up because I know if she does she will not be able to roll the pole past vertical. With no bottom arm pressure the focus for her has always been on rolling the pole and not on bending it. But on the few jumps that I have seen her not turn up she almost always stalls out, yet when she swings she will blow threw with the standards at 80. I don't know if my observation is scientifically sound or not but it seems to me that when vaulting properly you well always be able to generate more pole speed swinging then by staying right side up. When you or me have an experience contrary to this I believe it is the result of a poor swing.

---Kasey

[vault3rb0y]

Without even looking at the equations VP posted (although i commend you for making the calculations you did to prove your point), take two points for thought-

1.) why do straight pole vaulters drop their knee after take off? it lowers their center of gravity, allowing the pole to move to vertical easier. The higher your center of gravity, the more that center of gravity is moving upward, the more energy it takes. Since you are already off the ground, that energy has to come from the vaulter-pole system. It come from the pole speed ultimately. So when you invert on a stiff pole, best case scenario you lower your center of gravity long enough to move the pole, and time your swing to move the pole just as well as it would if you hadn't swung.

2.) In a transfer of energy, their is an equal and opposite reaction. In this case, that is between your body position and the pole (specifically the movement of the pole). This means that if you went limp at take off, the same amount of force would be applied to your body as it would the pole (not very efficient as you can imagine). To one degree or another, we resist this reaction of the pole on the body by engaging out muscles. The less our bodies move, the more that "reaction" energy is put into the pole. In this sense, a perfect transfer of run-up energy into moving the pole would require our bodies stay low and not move at all after take off (this also happens to hit on the huge debate going on right now- if a vaulters body slams into the pole, that just indicates they haven't stayed as rigid as necessary to transfer full energy into the pole. They should stay vertical throughout the whole vault by engaging pressure with both hands and using core/back strength. Until they can do this, they arent as efficient as possible). SUMMARY: When you swing, it makes staying rigid impossible and transferring your run-up energy much more difficult.

swinging on a stiff vault will not accelerate the pole unless it is well timed and keeps your center of gravity low (aka hitting the chord). You could prove it to me, but i would assume you must pass 45 degrees before your swing can have any positive effect on the pole speed. NOTE this is only on a stiff vault.

[powerplant42]

Good stuff. For some reason I just didn't think about COM rising... It makes perfect sense.

45 degrees should be for both stiff and flexible poles... Remember what matters biomechanically with the flexible pole is the chord, NOT the pole itself so much.

Becca, like I said I won't be devastated if I don't clear 14', but if I don't then I'll just want it that much more next time. I don't think this should be a problem really... not because I'm super-confident (though I am almost absolutely positive I'll jump 13'+), but because I do realize that there's more than 1 meet in the season.

Also, I don't count on 11'6" getting me any money. I count on certain other heights getting me money. Although this wasn't really even an "academic" scholarship offer, he just said he'd give me a "great offer". (After having spoken with him for about 30 seconds about some stuff that I do, he asked me what college I went to... Then we talked about MSM as an option and he said he'd put up some undisclosed amount of $ without any particular affiliation. So I don't know exactly what that means, but I'm working on it.)

[rainbowgirl28]

Judging by last year's results, I am not sure if MSM is fully funded (gives the max # of athletic scholarships) and it doesn't look like they have been investing in pole vaulters. It looks like this is their pole vault coach: http://www.mountathletics.com/ViewArtic ... EASON=2009


I think you should go to Rice, that's the only school where I can see you swallowing your pride and listening to/respecting the coach. You're not going to have success anywhere else unless you learn to buy into a program that does not fit your idea of the perfect Petrov model.

[ILPV]

listen man, this thread is no longer about help with your training its just turning into a thread of you breaking down each milli second of your vault and turning it into a 2 hour discussion
your clearly very educated in the vault and thats amazing but whats happening is that youve adopted the attitude of a person whose jumping 6 meters but your real PR is 11-6
stop turning this into my advanced physics class and just go out there and vault, have fun and along the way make corrections as you need to the best athletes in the world make their sport a major part of their lives but not their lives so just have fun with it while you can and make your senior season one that youll remember for the good things not the nights you spent pouring over your 5 second video of your 3 step sand vault

[KirkB]

Item #1 ...

We'll see about 14'. I won't be devastated if I don't jump it right off the bat, but I won't be too happy. I'll be pleased if I PR, but... I'd much rather jump 14'!

It's my goal for the first meet. I will do my best to reach it. I'm confident that I will.

I won't be devastated if I don't clear 14', but if I don't then I'll just want it that much more next time. I don't think this should be a problem really... not because I'm super-confident (though I am almost absolutely positive I'll jump 13'+), but because I do realize that there's more than 1 meet in the season.

Item #2 ...

(BTW, I got into college... Haven't applied yet, but Mount St. Mary's president had a good talk with me and says he's going to give me a great offer to go there over Villanova. He didn't even know that I was an athlete! Even more $ probably. Good stuff. So I think I'll be there for undergrad. Anyone know the coach?)

Although this wasn't really even an "academic" scholarship offer, he just said he'd give me a "great offer". (After having spoken with him for about 30 seconds about some stuff that I do, he asked me what college I went to... Then we talked about MSM as an option and he said he'd put up some undisclosed amount of $ without any particular affiliation. So I don't know exactly what that means, but I'm working on it.)

Item #3 ...

What you want me to say is this: "I'm trying to be better than I am and am just too full of myself to stay within my ability level and inch my way up."

That might be partially true, but that's definitely not the whole story. (BTW, I am TOTALLY aware that I have a big ego.)

PP, what do these 3 items have in common?

On the plus side, here's what Mt. St. Mary's Athletic Dept. had to say about their track coach ...

Most recently, Deegan has qualified pole vaulters for the every NCAA regional since its inception, and in the last five years has coached two different Penn Relays decathlon champions, a two-time IC4A heptathlon winner and record holder, and a total of 17 Northeast Conference champions

This may be as good as it gets for you PP ... a head coach that seems to specialize in the PV! Who knows ... maybe you could teach him the Petrov Model and you'd both be happy! (I'm serious about this ... after 50+ years of coaching there, he MIGHT be rather laid back about technique, so he MIGHT be willing to cut his vaulters some slack in their technique preferences. You won't know until you talk to him ... unless maybe someone else on PVP knows him.) This MIGHT be good!

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

I will just warn you to be VERY VERY careful when it comes to talking to college coaches about technique. It is a slippery slope. Your best path will be to straight up BTB and say that you want to "try some of the drills" in the book. If any intelligent coach takes the time to read the book they cannot argue with it, or at least its fundamental principles. Without the book, you are still just a vaulter fresh out of high school, no matter how high you've jumped you won't get respect.