5.05 bungee from a 5 step

[Polevaulter2012]

I have a feeling that this is an urban myth. I may be wrong but could you back this up.

2012 If taps work for you and your coach stick with them and don't feel you have to justify them to quarterbacks behind a computer screen.
Gymnastics coaches use them all of the time to teach giants.

I agree, but i would like to give people some insight on what my perspective is on the tap. I did not know the tap was such a sore subject on PVP until posting our video asking what people thought about our jumps. We found out what people thought about the tap instead.

[altius]

If you check my initial response old son you will find some significant feedback there - if you understand the language I am using.

[KirkB]

"it's been associated with the death of a lot of pretty damn good pole vaulters like yourself."

I have a feeling that this is an urban myth. I may be wrong but could you back this up.

I too have difficulty in believing that tapping has led to death. Sounds like an exaggeration to me, but I will stand corrected if it's actually true. I think it's more dangerous for the coach than the vaulter, as seen in this vid ... http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=18808. A little bit funny ... but really not so funny!

If the suggestion that tapping leads to deaths was a scare tactic, then shame on you. We don't need fear-mongering ... we need FACTS!

Gymnastics coaches use them all of the time to teach giants.

This is a poor argument for why it's OK for VAULT coaches to tap.

In highbar, the action of a giant is relatively simple ... the gymnast just hangs on tight ... or uses grips that guarantee that he'll hang on ... keeps his body fairly straight ... and generates enough momentum on his downswing and whip to complete each giant. When first learning a giant, a tap is a definite help ... both psychologically and to ensure that there's sufficient momentum so that the gymnast doesn't stall out. When doing a giant, the gymnast has no choice but to propel his entire body weight over the bar ... he can't drop 10-20 pounds to get the hang of it, then revert back to his normal body weight ... he has no choice. There's a very real danger if the gymnast stalls out and lands on the bar ... or lands on the mat head-first (if he's not using the proper grips). There's also the very real danger that a rookie gymnast could misuse the grips and tear ligaments in his wrists. This is why the gym coach spots and taps when needed.

In comparison, the action of a vault is relatively complex ... the vaulter must execute a complicated series of body actions ... run, plant, jump, pre-stretch, downswing, whip, upswing, invert, extend ... all whilst going top speed down the runway, hanging onto a pole, and swinging around the top hand whilst the pole is rotating around its butt in the box. This is a way more complex series of actions than a simple giant. These inter-dependent actions of the vaulter-pole system are fraught with the potential for the vaulter to stall out and land in the box ... or inadvertently clear the entire pit to any of its other 3 sides ... and in no way does a tap on a big pole equate to getting on it without a tap ... false confidence.

While some inexperienced vaulters might think that the answer is for the coach to SPOT and to TAP the vaulter ... just like a gym coach spots and taps a gymnast on the highbar ... in case the vaulter inadvertently stalls out ... this idea introduces just as many problems as it solves ... if not more.

Becuz of the complexities of the vault ... and becuz it's easier to learn, improve, and perfect your technique with the RIGHT SIZE of pole for each and every practice or competitive situation, tapping just gets in the way of learning "proper" technique. I don't particularly think it's dangerous ... but I definitely think it's INEFFECTIVE for its intended purpose ... whether the coach and vaulter recognize this ineffectiveness or not.

Since this has been my 3rd serious post on this thread ... and based on the past performance of 2012, I know I'm almost guaranteed of getting an argumentative reply ... this will probably be my last post on this thread.

Really? no one has any tips or anything?

It's such a shame that you've asked for tips ... compained that no one had any ... until one of the most reknowned PV coaches on the planet TRIED to give you some good advice ... and you not only rejected his advice, but you insulted him by saying that he "read BTB2" ... when in fact he WROTE it!

Once you found out his level of expertise, you didn't relent in your rejection of his advice.

You subsequently rejected the good advice ... some VERY good advice ... of many other vaulters and coaches that are far more knowledgeable on the topic than yourself ... guys like Wally, Vaulterboy, Golfdane, Andy, Chasing, and Rainbowgirl. As I see it, you've burnt your bridges.

And your rebuttals are almost comical. For these reasons ... I'm out.

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

Many people attribute the death of the PSU vaulter to being tapped excessively. I don't want to spell it out because his dad does not agree with this and I don't want it to show up on google.

The rules prohibiting tapping in meets began to take effect the year after that accident, so take that as you will.

Athletes who are tapped every jump every practice get used to turning up vaults no matter what. I am still waiting to hear more details on the kid who was seriously injured in North Carolina a few weeks before Reno, but the details I heard sure made me wonder if the kid was tapped in practice. It involved a lot of swinging when the pole was getting nowhere near vertical and landing on the runway and in the box.



If nothing else, it is good for you guys to think critically about the role of tapping. Someday a lot of you will be coaches, and you'll have to decide if it's something you'll do, and if so, how often and in what circumstances.

[golfdane]

golfdane:
can you get on your biggest competition pole in practice? Probably not. This is why a tap also works good. yeah you can lower your grip and go to smaller poles to avoid the tap, but how are you going to practice timimg up with your competion poles if you can only jump on them in a meet? If you can get a tap that is done correctly then you are able to get onto the bigger poles that you use for competition during practice. If you dont like it then dont do it, Its that simple. I know i feel more confident on my bigger poles in a meet because i was able to vault on them in practice, but it may not work for you. since pole vault is so mental you have to do things that make you feel confident. So the tap can be a really good thing or it can be a really bad thing.

Moving up poles should NOT be a decision made on desire to jump bigger poles. You move to bigger poles when your technique and performance calls for it. Like when you blow through with standards all the way back, even though the rest of your jump was OK. If that happens, moving to a bigger pole (provided the gap isn't to big) is a natural transition that SHOULDN'T require you to feel any need of a tap. Period!

There's no need to use your biggest competition pole in practice, unless you've improved and all other poles are too small. That goes for competition as well. The choice of pole and grip height is dictated by the performance of the day (or the drill you are trying to do, if you are training), and not whether you are in a competition or just training.

[vault3rb0y]

The first jumper has a pretty solid t/o. Could be slightly farther out, but his bottom arm punch at the plant keeps the jump plenty smooth and looking pretty good. Being out 5 inches would only make things more smooth, however. As stands, his t/o is very solid. His biggest issue right now is in his arm action after his swing reaches the chord. He is pulling with his bottom arm to help accelerate the hips. It ends up robbing the top hand of recieving all the energy of the swing, and puts the pole too far in front of you (blocking) to fully invert and fold back before you pull.

The second jumper's hips begin moving prematurely, due to an under t/o and slightly late hands in initiating the plant sequence. The rest doesnt matter much. Once that is fixed he won't need any external energy input and will invert no problem.

[tsorenson]

I agree that you don't need to justify what you do in practice...you are all safe vaulters and your team's practice culture is built around safety and natural pole progression. Thank you to those who have attempted to return this thread to its original intention...helpful feedback. It's funny how you can't barely get a response until the discussion turns to the tapping debate, then you get 5 pages of increasingly heated "discussion", where nobody convinces anyone of anything productive, and your desired feedback goes out the window.
Let's keep the tapping debate separate, eh? Do what works for you, Scotty and lets leave it alone. Anyone who wants to discuss it further I'm sure there are multiple other threads that can be re-activated on the subject.
TS

[Polevaulter2012]

If you check my initial response old son you will find some significant feedback there - if you understand the language I am using.

The most obvious and important thing is that neither of you drive your shoulders powerfully towards the pad as you complete your swing -- Executing this correctly allows you put energy into the pole, hold it flexed for milliseconds longer and to cover the pole effectively so that you can then punch your hips up vertically - not towards the bar.

I actually liked how you said this.

It's such a shame that you've asked for tips ... compained that no one had any ... until one of the most reknowned PV coaches on the planet TRIED to give you some good advice ... and you not only rejected his advice, but you insulted him by saying that he "read BTB2" ... when in fact he WROTE it!

Once you found out his level of expertise, you didn't relent in your rejection of his advice.

You subsequently rejected the good advice ... some VERY good advice ... of many other vaulters and coaches that are far more knowledgeable on the topic than yourself ... guys like Wally, Vaulterboy, Golfdane, Andy, Chasing, and Rainbowgirl. As I see it, you've burnt your bridges.

And your rebuttals are almost comical. For these reasons ... I'm out.

Well first of all i did not know who altius was until he told me. Just because I dont agree with altius or anyone else on here about the tap being all bad doesnt mean I havent taken in advice. I see where you are coming from on the tap, but I have had great success with using it as a training tool and not as a crutch, so i cant see it as being all bad. I think it can work for some and not for others. I have taken in some of the advice altius has given me. Just because he wrote a book doesnt mean I should do everything he says, No offence altius. I think Altius says a lot of good things but there are somethings that I do and think differently then he does. Just because I dont agree on the tap subject with you guys doesnt mean I am ignoring advice. I have taken in all the stuff that I think is important to my vaulting career. I have even used some of it in other posts, altius will know what i am talking about. I think you just are really aginst the tap so you have alreday closed your mind on the subject, as for me i see why it can be a bad thing but i also see why it can be a good thing.This issue will never go anywhere. You have not said one thing about our vaults except that the tap is bad and it kills good vaulters like me. I know we will never agree on the tap so why continue talking about it. This is just something our coach incorporates into his program. Why not look at the bigger picture, How are we jumping? Please break down my vault Kirk. I would like to hear what you have to say, because i am pretty sure you are going to say somethings that i am going to like and start thinking about. So lets Drop the tap issue.

We are not always trying to get on big poles. 99% of our training is done on smaller poles to work on form. Just to clear up people thinkin we are always trying to get on big poles.

The first jumper has a pretty solid t/o. Could be slightly farther out, but his bottom arm punch at the plant keeps the jump plenty smooth and looking pretty good. Being out 5 inches would only make things more smooth, however. As stands, his t/o is very solid. His biggest issue right now is in his arm action after his swing reaches the chord. He is pulling with his bottom arm to help accelerate the hips. It ends up robbing the top hand of recieving all the energy of the swing, and puts the pole too far in front of you (blocking) to fully invert and fold back before you pull.

The second jumper's hips begin moving prematurely, due to an under t/o and slightly late hands in initiating the plant sequence. The rest doesnt matter much. Once that is fixed he won't need any external energy input and will invert no problem.

vault3rb0y: Thanks! My take off in this jump could be further out, but usually it is. As for my left arm, what do you think i should do to fix this left arm pull. I noticed it the other day. I have been focusing on it in the drills we do. Do you have any suggestions on how to fix this? I think the answer is doing it right in my drills that we do with out a pole like high bar work, rings, P-bars, and so on. I would like to hear your imput on this. I dont know if you noticed, but I look down at take off. I think a huge reason for this is limited flexibility in my shoulders. I noticed when stretching my shoulders out on a door way if i look down my chest can come through more and my arms can come further back, but when i look up I cant drive my chest forward nearly as much and my arms dont come back as far. Could this be a factor in why i look down and block?

If nothing else, it is good for you guys to think critically about the role of tapping. Someday a lot of you will be coaches, and you'll have to decide if it's something you'll do, and if so, how often and in what circumstances.

I agree.

[Polevaulter2012]

Hey guys i was looking on my computer and i found a jump from last year. Its pretty cool to see how far i have come since last year. The first video was taken on 2/24/09 the second one on 2/23/10 The first jump i am on a 15' 180 16.1 flex from 7(bar at 14'), the second jump is the one of this year on a 14'6 185 14.6 flex from 5(bungee at 16'6) just something cool to look at.
http://pvtime.ning.com/video/the-difference-of-a-year

[KirkB]

... You have not said one thing about our vaults except that the tap is bad and it kills good vaulters like me. ...

For the record, I never said that "it kills good vaulters". In fact, I agreed with dougb that it sounded like an urban myth. Since then, RG has hinted at SOME references to deaths where tapping might be PARTIALLY to blame ... but since I'm from Missouri (not really), I'm certainly not (yet) assuming that tapping leads to deaths. My argument is merely that your training time and mindset might be better focused on taking REAL vaults on right-sized poles. That's all.

I will even concede that if you're a newbie vaulter in the 3 meter (10-foot) range, then SPOTTING ... and yes, perhaps TAPPING ... MIGHT be beneficial. But if you're approaching the 5 meter (16-5) range, then I just don't see the benefit of the "training wheels".

To be clear, I said:

I too have difficulty in believing that tapping has led to death. Sounds like an exaggeration to me, but I will stand corrected if it's actually true. I think it's more ...

If the suggestion that tapping leads to deaths was a scare tactic, then shame on you. We don't need fear-mongering ... we need FACTS!

OK ... we all want to move on, so go nuts ... I'm out!

Sorry, I will NOT comment on the technique of any vaults with a tap ... since they're not REAL vaults. As for your vaults without the taps, I'll let others with more time and patience than me help you out. You're in good hands ... just remember to LISTEN to their advice!

p.s. I really think it's great that you've got 5 vaulters at Lane living together, and a great coach. That's gotta be fun, inspiring, supportive, and FRUITFUL ('cept for you-know-what)!

Kirk

[powerplant42]

Taps are not good for anyone who wants to vault safely.

[vault3rb0y]

LOL, thanks PP

As for the issue with pulling with the bottom arm, a lot of people would tell you just to "not do anything" with it and just hang on your top hand. Easier said than done.... and so there is something that has helped me and my old club TREMENDOUSLY with keeping the weight on the top arm. If you think about pressing your bottom hand toward the left standard (up and to the left) while you swing, it keeps your weight on your top hand. Although you don't need to ACTUALLY put upward force into the pole with your bottom hand while you swing, its a matter of doing one thing to make sure you don't do another (pulling). So think about pushing, and whether or not you actually push doesn't matter as much as the fact that you don't pull. Until you are fully inverted, keep thinking about pushing that hand up toward the standard. Also, pushing it up toward the standard moves the bend of the pole to the left, and out of the way, which keeps you from blocking and allows you to fully invert more easily.

Another tip would be rope inverts. Wrap your top hand with a grip/something to support your full weight (unless you are a beast and can just hang there with one hand without issue). Wth your bottom hand on the rope, get into a t/o position with slack between your hands, and both hands pressing upwards. When you invert, keep your bottom hand pressing upwards, and you will be forced to use only the muscle groups in your top hand to invert. Try it without an actual t/o, just hanging on the rope at first. Then take some steps, swing back and forth on the rope, and try it again.

Doing these two simple drills should slowly reinforce your habits. Then in the vault, practice on a pole soft enough that you don't have to fight to invert too quickly, and when you do it right the pole will roll like crazy. You'll need to get that feeling before you try it in a real vault, otherwise you will be fighting to invert too quickly, and you'll revert back to what's worked before. Just remember to keep everything long and keep pressing with your hands

as for your shoulders being too stiff and looking down at t/o, it is my opinion that you should keep everything tall and going "up" at take off, including your head. But I also believe that during the initial impact from the box, you should keep your body as rigid as possible. The less your body moves when the pole bend is initiated, the more energy of your run must be going into the pole, and not into distorting your body position instead. Your shoulders go backwards as a result of the impact of the box, but you should not "let" your shoulders get hammered at impact. You need to remain as rigid as possible at the INITIAL impact. Now, this should get the pole rolling very well if done correctly, and once the pole begins rolling and the vaulter/pole system is initiated, you should allow your shoulders/abs/hip flexors to extend into a strong T/O position (both leaving the ground correctly, and the pressure from the pole puts you into the C position, you should NOT force yourself into that position). When this crucial "rigid" state to "extended" state is done correctly, you can't even notice it, and it just looks like people let the pole hit them. Bio-mechanically, I don't think this is what is happening in an ideal scenario, but since it happens so quickly you don't notice it. So.... to answer your question, I think that the reason you role the pole so nicely at t/o is because you have a strong bottom arm "punch" and your body stays very rigid at t/o and immediately after t/o. So nearly all of your energy is going into the pole, and thats why it moves so well. if you wanted to relax your shoulders a little more, make sure you relax your hip flexors/abdominals as well. Just remember, hit the pole HARD before you allow your body to relax/extend into the C position you are looking for.