11ft from a 2 left approach

[LHSVaulterJJR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7UVn2yPayE

the reason the run was so short was because i was mushing this pole from a 3 even when just jogging it. and there wasnt another pole anywhere near what i needed. But really focusing on trying to drill in my top form in this vid. starting to get somewhere

[KirkB]

LHS, I think I like the way you drive your lead leg forwards after takeoff. From what I see so far, I think that technique has good potential for you!

On the downside, you're loading the pole on takeoff, and pressing with your bottom arm ... on every vault in this vid. I'm not sure if you're trying to break yourself of that habit or not. Are you?

You know, it's really quite ironic. You're striving so hard to drive your lead LEG forwards (and that's all GOOD), but at the same time, you're resisting with your bottom arm, which PREVENTS your from getting a good drive going, with good body posture (leaning forwards, driving the CHEST forwards), then popping back into a vigorous swing.

From what I can see, it's not your lead LEG extension that's stopping you from fulfilling your swing, it's your upper body (bottom arm and chest) that's "all wrong". Your lower body is great! Not only is your lead leg driving FORWARDS, but your trail leg gets BACK quite well too. That's the "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" physics law that we discussed in another post recently.

Your very last jump over the 11' bungee is the one that I looked at the most, frame by frame. Nice clearance, but ...

Once you kill your swing (due to your lack of free takeoff and bottom arm push), you have no choice but to pull you legs up (they've stopped swinging), and then muscle your way up. I count 6-7 frames where you're in the "flat-back" position. As you might imagine, staying in the "flat-back" position for that long is very, very PASSIVE.

I think you understand the disadvantages of passive actions (inactions, actually), but for the benefit of other readers that don't, PASSIVE actions rob your vault of BETTER WAYS TO SPEND YOUR TIME ON THE POLE. Gravity starts pulling you down from the moment you take off, so to fight it ... getting as high of a bar clearance as you possibly can ... you need to be DOING SOMETHING in each and every video frame! Every PAUSE (where you just sorta HANG on the pole doing NOTHING) is time wasted. Every ACTIVE action, one frame after the other, either puts MORE energy into the pole, or gets you HIGHER and HIGHER towards the bar.

That's the downfall of the tuck/shoot model (which is what you're doing). It's just not as EFFICIENT as the Petrov model, because it doesn't follow the CONTINUOUS CHAIN THEORY. Search for "continuous chain theory".

It might sound rather advanced in the way that Agapit explains it, but don't let that scare you off. It's really what vaulters of ALL levels need to strive for ... no matter what model they're following. It's really just a way of following the "laws of physics" during a vault.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now!

Slacken off on the bottom arm on takeoff ... maybe use a narrower grip ... get your chest driving thru ... then pop back out of your chest drive IMMEDIATELY ... and you're going to have a great downswing!

Kirk

[LHSVaulterJJR]

thanks kirk. and why not use the one jump i slow motioned haha that was my best one of the day ... my coach is an older style vaulter one particularly in the form of pushing up with the bottom arm and initiating the swing with a big pull/rowing motion of the shoulders. when you row he wants me to row my top hand to my left quad. but when i actually do this it more a less lines you up on the pole better. quickens the swing, puts more energy into the pole and helps you swing UP so that your swinging your legs and hips way above your shoulders by the time you hit your invert position. obviously i havent quite gotten it right yet. this video was probably the first time ive gotten inverted all the way like that. so theres plenty of room for improvement.

i still have no idea what the flat back position is though haha

honestly i dont believe in tucking and i dont think i was in this vid... even though my coach is a tuck vaulter

and yea im pretty much just following what my coach is saying as of now. cant really mix in two different vault models right? lol ... plus he jumped 18' 10" with a 4 and a half foot push off. and he was only 5'8" so he knows how to teach short guys how to vault.

HOWEVER i do want to start driving my chest In as u explained... but im afraid im not going to do it by breaking my arm. im going to do it with both of my arms pushing upwards and high, but my left elbow would be facing outwards allowing my chest to drive in. If the elbow faces forwards you cant drive the chest in and you block. facing the the elbow out at the plant, while putting upwards pressure would allow my chest to drive in as tim mcmichael did in those vaults ive shown you on the previous forum

high arms,elbow out, chest drive, big swing initiated by and strengthened by a row, hips high above shoulders at invert, explosive kip, pull, turn at the top

[smokinvaulter1]

Who is your coach?

[KirkB]

LHS, I'm going to back off giving you any more coaching advice re the bottom arm. I will try (if I can contain myself ) to restrict my comments to your unique style of driving the entire lead leg forwards after takeoff.

The reason is that you have a good coach, and he's coaching you to press with the bottom arm. While I personally think that Petrov is better, I firmly believe that having a coach that's there in person to help you day in and day out is better than ANY advice you can get from PVP. Of course, a blend of the two would be nice, but the worst thing in the world for you (or anyone else that has a good personal coach) is for you to get conflicting advice. Your personal coach must rule, IMHO. It will totally screw you up if you try to mix Petrov advice with drive vault advice. Only your personal coach can "reconcile" the various alternatives to "pure Petrov", or "pure drive vault". Don't try to do this yourself. You need to listen to your coach!

However, I will answer your questions as best as I can ...

i still have no idea what the flat back position is

The frames when your back is flat ... horizontal ... parallel to the runway. It's not just when your back is PERFECTLY flat. It's all the frames when your hips don't raise up at all in relation to the pole. You're more or less STUCK in this position ... RIDING the pole ... passively. If you were ACTIVE, you would simply pass thru the "flat back" position in a single frame. If you're modeling after Stevenson, look at him again, and count how many frames he's in the "flat back" position. I didn't look today, but I'm quite sure that he just passes THRU the flat back position ... in a single frame.

honestly i dont believe in tucking and i dont think i was in this vid... even though my coach is a tuck vaulter

If you're in the "flat back" position for 6-7 frames, then you're definitely "tucking". Not in the sense of cowboying or bringing your knees right into your chest, but certainly in the sense of a "pause and shoot". A "tuck and shoot" is really the same as a "pause and shoot". If you're pausing for 6-7 frames, then you're a tuck/shooter. Same difference. Just different words.

i'm pretty much just following what my coach is saying as of now. cant really mix in two different vault models right? lol

Right. As I said in my first paragraph, if the models are going to be mixed, your coach has to do it. Not me, and not you. BTW, what does he think of your exagerated lead leg style?

... he jumped 18' 10" with a 4 and a half foot push off. and he was only 5'8" so he knows how to teach short guys how to vault.

I believe the 18-10, and I believe the 5-8, but I don't believe the 4-6 pushoff ... unless his name is Joe Dial ... and I know he went HIGHER than 18-10 ... and only pushed off 4-4. That's just too incredible to believe. However, anything over 3-6 is very good, so I'm sure he would have a good pushoff.

HOWEVER i do want to start driving my chest In as u explained... but i'm afraid im not going to do it by breaking my arm. i'm going to do it with both of my arms pushing upwards and high, but my left elbow would be facing outwards allowing my chest to drive in. If the elbow faces forwards you can't drive the chest in and you block. facing the the elbow out at the plant, while putting upwards pressure would allow my chest to drive in as tim mcmichael did in those vaults i've shown you on the previous forum

Some of what you say sounds correct, but I'm afraid I can't advise you on that, as I don't have any personal experience with the drive vault. Tim is the resident expert on PVP re that. It is exactly because of Tim's success, Joe Dial's success, your coach's success, and all the 19'+ American vaulters' success that I'm not going to stay on my soapbox and preach "the Petrov way" to any Americans that have had success with the drive vault. I'm the wrong coach for that.

Remember what I suggested re a narrower grip? Along with keeping your elbow out, this will prevent you from blocking as much ... it will let your chest come thru more. Ask your coach about this idea, but by all means, follow his advice on this idea ... not mine.

high arms, elbow out, chest drive, big swing initiated by and strengthened by a row, hips high above shoulders at invert, explosive kip, pull, turn at the top

Sounds OK. Well, maybe not the row ... OK ... time for me to be quiet and let your coach do the coaching. You're actually VERY, VERY lucky to have an 18-10 vaulter as a coach! There's hardly any vaulters of that caliber coaching in high schools, so count your lucky stars! Like I said ... having a good coach ... regardless of his technique or model ... is better than having no coach at all and having to learn to vault on your own.

Kirk

[LHSVaulterJJR]

O you have no Idea How much of a miracle it is that hes able to coach me. i couldnt ask for more. He Vaulted around the same time duplantis, tully, dial and them vaulted. He himself was actually coached by dave roberts and mike cotton. My coach vaulted for auburn when he jumped 18 10 and was going to the olympic trials in those years( i think his vault carreer was from 78-83) im not sure. he started vaulting his senior year in high school. and only vaulted for 3 weeks when he jumped 14'6" he was VERY fast down the runway and had been a gymnast his whole life so it kinda came natural. He held the southeastern record before lawrence johnson broke it, and was going to the olympic trials like i said. at the time of the trials 18 10 was only 3 or four inches off the world record... so that should put the time/era in perspective. UNFORTUNETLY about a month or two before the trials, him and a freind went on a hunting trip. his buddy tripped, the gun hit the ground missfired and shot my coach straight through his right knee! there goes a vaulting career!his buddy went on to actually make it to the olympics and even gave my coach his olympic ring because of how bad he felt. My coaches Name is David Spivey. only vaulted for about 5 years in his prime before the accident... assss for the pushoff i believe he was on 16 ft poles gripping 15' 6" with a 9 inch drop in the box so the grip moves to what 14'9" so it was a 49" pushoff. Ill recheck with him at practice today get all the numbers double checked haha

[KirkB]

My coaches Name is David Spivey. only vaulted for about 5 years in his prime before the accident... as for the pushoff i believe he was on 16 ft poles gripping 15' 6" with a 9 inch drop in the box so the grip moves to what 14'9" so it was a 49" pushoff.

Not to quibble, but the box is 8" deep, so clearing 18-10 with his 15-6 grip would be a 4-0 pushoff. Like I said, still VERY impressive, without jacking up the numbers by another half foot.

Please also check his 18-10. Not that I don't believe you, but I can find no record of that. On google, I find him at some lower heights, just not at 18-10. Since he was apparently so close to the WR, I would have thought he would be on a list somewhere. Even if his PR was only 18-0, he should be on a list. If you can find that list, please give us the link.

I checked "Who's Who in PV III" and he's not there ... although it's hit and miss whether a vaulter might be there or not. WWPV3 includes every US Outdoor Nationals competitor since 1877, and he's not there. Please ask him what meet he did 18-10 in, the date, and what he placed. With that info, I can ask GD (my PV statistician buddy) to track him down.

Again, I'm not on a witch-hunt, I'm just trying to learn more about your coach. I'm impressed that he was coached by Roberts and Cotton ... a couple of my buddies from my era that I vaulted with ... I would guess that DJ knows Spivey ... ? I will ask Dave Roberts about him.

Kirk

[LHSVaulterJJR]

sure .. ill ask my coach on monday about the meet he jumped it in. all the years ect. And yess dj knows him, actually i think dj and him coached a couple clinics together a while back. have the stats on monday

[KirkB]

DR had nothing but good things to say about DS ... "great athlete" ... "great potential" ... and "would probably be an excellent coach".

Kirk