Another Colwick-like vaulter spotted: Is this something?

[Stensol]

Recent video of Jason Colwick from Rottach, Germany (July 13, 2009): http://www.touchtheclouds.de/fileadmin/videos/2009/2009_07_12_rottach/2009_07_12_jason_colwick_572_seite.mov

I've found another Colwick-like video featuring another vaulter, and I find this take-off style pretty fascinating: http://www.stavhopp.net/blogg/uploads/Nyatekniken.MOV Who is this vaulter?

This goes way beyond simply "dropping the lead knee" (http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15961), so it seemed to warrant its own topic.

Is this something to pay serious attention to? It seems to "work" for Colwick, from a timing point of view.

[VaultPurple]

If he is American I know there is another guy that jumps pretty high like that that went to Coastal Carolina a few years ago.

[Stensol]

Yeah, it must be him: Mark Johnson (transferred from Coastal Carolina to Auburn). This video is apparently from San Diego.

Has anyone out there tried experimenting with this takeoff technique? Is anyone out there trying to coach this?

[vault3rb0y]

When i think about this technique there are a lot of ways to approach it. The one i've been wrestling with is this-

During the progression of a vaulter from 16-17-18-19 feet, which part of the vault's progress is more limited- the take off or the inversion? I would agrue that while you can add more energy off the ground, that that amount of energy is going to be limited (even with two legs) when you cannot swing faster. And to do this type of technique, you are obviously reducing your take-off efficiency quite substantially. But the take off has more room to constantly improve than the inversion, and is more influential to overall vault hieght than the inversion.

I almost see this double-legged swing as something that, when given room to improve, can drastically improve a novice vaulter's hieghts (from 12-13-14). When they continue with it, they turn into colwick. But i believe that eventually it will be limited simply because the take off is the most important part of the vault, and anything that takes away from that part of the vault is less-than-ideal. If this is not true, then it opens up all sorts of doors. But ill hold onto my skepticism for now (but enjoy the spectical still!).

[baggettpv]

This style is worthless if you think of a 6.40 jump. If you want to jump 5.80 then go for it, drop the leg. Remember perfect technique is not always accomplished which doesn't mean imperfections are intentional.

Rick Baggett
WSTC

[Andy_C]

Look, I have no doubt that a very talented individual like Colwick can jump very high with this type of technique. But I really wouldn't recommend it to everybody since it would take that special kind of individual to pull something like this off really well. I would go as far as saying that most people who try this probably wouldn't see too much success unless they have a similar physical/mental make-up to Colwick. Yes I certainly believe there are a lot of variations of the Petrov model as well as non-Petrov ways of jumping very high. However, in all agreement with Rick, if you want to go for the best way of vaulting, there's only one choice as proven by our male and female world record holders. Sometimes I do get tired of being a Petrov cheerleader but it has to be said - bluntly - every now and then here. And I don't think it's illogical to say that this notion should stand until proven otherwise.

I know people are just looking for more ways to improve their vaulting and I don't blame them, it's human nature to try and be innovative. There is however, a significant difference between the innovation of Petrov and the innovation of many other people who have tried to make their own way. The other people tend to trail blaze their own path based on experimentation, practical experience as well as the appropriation of other people's technique, resulting in clever people finding their own ways of jumping pretty high. The Petrov model on the other hand was put together scientifically as the optimal biomechanical model of pole vaulting and then proven by Bubka and Isinbayeva in practice.

Now I'm sure there have been people who have put a scientific approach to creating a pole vault model which contradicts Petrov's but the result usually lacks the level of insight that Petrov's effort had since their effort is nowhere near the scope of Petrov's. Insight is all about the consideration of all known variables. Lacking the scope of development that Petrov had, a new pole vault model will ultimately suffer from flawed concepts due to underdeveloped ideas about the event. To put it simply; they haven't thought of everything and what they did think of they didn't think through enough! Now unless somebody wants to put together a group from MIT, UC Berkeley and Cal Tech - then team them up with the best athletes in the world in order to create an even better model, I think I'll stick with Petrov.

[rainbowgirl28]

I'd like to point out that Mark Johnson was doing this back when Colwick was a high schooler that no one had ever heard of.

[vault3rb0y]

Now unless somebody wants to put together a group from MIT, UC Berkeley and Cal Tech - then team them up with the best athletes in the world in order to create an even better model, I think I'll stick with Petrov.

My bet would be that it would look almost identical, if not identical, to the russian model. Theres only so many ways to stretch variables... i think it would lead back to the way bubka and isi try to do things.

[VaultPurple]

Let it be said I like Petrov model and that is how I try to vault. But everyone talks about the Petrov model as being so scientifically proven and all but was it put together by scientist, or did they just prove it was best after it had been done?

Petrov was and is a great coach but wasn't he always just a track and field coach? Petrov is no Russian scientist with a PhD in biomechanics. People say that no one could come up with a new model because they would not be able to think it through unless they had a team from MIT and got a team of people together.

[Pogo Stick]

Let it be said I like Petrov model and that is how I try to vault. But everyone talks about the Petrov model as being so scientifically proven and all but was it put together by scientist, or did they just prove it was best after it had been done?

Petrov was and is a great coach but wasn't he always just a track and field coach? Petrov is no Russian scientist with a PhD in biomechanics. People say that no one could come up with a new model because they would not be able to think it through unless they had a team from MIT and got a team of people together.

'There is nothing so practical as a good theory' (Kurt Lewin)
In my opinion Petrov model is the best hands-on implementation of model based on scientific research about pole vaulting created by many coaches and scientist from USSR in '70 and '80. I have no doubt about Petrov great coaching abilities - the achievements of his athletes talk enough.
Lot of coaches from former USSR had formal education in coaching. Many of them hold an equivalent of .B. Sc.; not so rare were coaches with M.Sc or Ph.D. degree. Regardless of Petrov's formal education, he is the most successful coach in history of pole vaulting. I am sure he had access to best biomechanic experts in USSR as well as scientists in Russian equivalent for MIT and Stanford. I am also certain he had access to everything required for creating elite athletes: facilities, medical care, physiotherapy, massage, recovery, dieticians, etc. That was official government policy in USSR backed up with money and rewards for successes and punishments for failures.
Too bad Agapit is not here to explain whole system with more details.

[PaulVaulter]

IF this was prooven by scientists, how was it done?

Did they look at all the current vaulters, study their individual techniques, apply mathematical formulae and work out who was most efficient?

This is most likely as science has a tendency in these kind of situations to be used to prove previously existing concepts rather than to create a new concept all-together. So it could then be stated that the petrov technique was the most biomechanically efficient technique used at that time as there was noone jumping like Mark or Jason then. I doubt any scientist would have the foresight to be able to create a theoretical model of pole vaulting that looks like what these guys are doing, I personally would say its physically impossible if i hadn't seen all the videos of the two of them.

So if we do a similar study now does the petrov technique still come out on top?

Who knows, and thats why these discusions are started. Essentially the most efficient technique is going to come down to which clears the highest bar for a given take-off speed. I think it would be very close, BUT for a real world application, there is another point we must consider, is it possible to take-off at the same top speed with both techniques. One may be considered more efficient but if you have 100% efficiency at 8m/s, you still won't beat someone with 90% efficiency at 10m/s. Efficiency of the vault isn't everything.

It would be very interesting to see some of Mark and Jasons take-off speeds.

[Andy_C]

Let it be said I like Petrov model and that is how I try to vault. But everyone talks about the Petrov model as being so scientifically proven and all but was it put together by scientist, or did they just prove it was best after it had been done?

Petrov was and is a great coach but wasn't he always just a track and field coach? Petrov is no Russian scientist with a PhD in biomechanics. People say that no one could come up with a new model because they would not be able to think it through unless they had a team from MIT and got a team of people together.

'There is nothing so practical as a good theory' (Kurt Lewin)
In my opinion Petrov model is the best hands-on implementation of model based on scientific research about pole vaulting created by many coaches and scientist from USSR in '70 and '80. I have no doubt about Petrov great coaching abilities - the achievements of his athletes talk enough.
Lot of coaches from former USSR had formal education in coaching. Many of them hold an equivalent of .B. Sc.; not so rare were coaches with M.Sc or Ph.D. degree. Regardless of Petrov's formal education, he is the most successful coach in history of pole vaulting. I am sure he had access to best biomechanic experts in USSR as well as scientists in Russian equivalent for MIT and Stanford. I am also certain he had access to everything required for creating elite athletes: facilities, medical care, physiotherapy, massage, recovery, dieticians, etc. That was official government policy in USSR backed up with money and rewards for successes and punishments for failures.
Too bad Agapit is not here to explain whole system with more details.

I think that's a really good answer Pogo! I'm not 100% sure about the information but basically the idea was that the Soviet Union wanted to "pick" their events that they wanted to dominate. Then they would coordinate an effort to create the best possible way of actually doing the sport - done so through both science and practice.

Now I don't know very much about Petrov himself, I don't know if he has a PhD in biomechanics. As far as I know though, all coaches from the USSR and a lot of the "remnant" programs scattered throughout Eastern Europe have some sort of formal education in sports science. That's not to say Petrov is the top of the field in biomechanics, but the way their efforts were organized I'd bet a lot of money that Petrov had several top biomechanists, sports scientists, doctors and a whole lot of other people working towards his model in some form or other. It's a bit deceptive to call it the "Petrov Model". Of course he should get all the credit in the world for making it - but it kind of suggests that all of it was created simply by one person which I don't think is the case. As Pogo alluded to, there would have been an entire support team behind Petrov and his athletes, the likes of which I don't think has ever been seen since.

Think of his work as the Manhattan Project of the pole vault world. It was a huge effort from a lot of people from different fields working under one man (Petrov) with the intention of dominating the event.

My bet would be that it would look almost identical, if not identical, to the russian model. Theres only so many ways to stretch variables... i think it would lead back to the way bubka and isi try to do things.

Didn't think of that but now that I have, you're probably right!