Rigid vs. Open position on take off

[vault3rb0y]

For quite a while i have been under the impression that on take off, the muscles from your sternum to hip flexor relax to stretch your body into a long C before beginning the swing. However, petrov speaks of keeping your back straight and in line before swinging, and that the flexion comes in the hips/torso. How can this go hand-in-hand with the common suggestions to "lead with your chest" or "fully extend after take off"? To me it comes down to what position is more powerful to set up your swing- a more flexed and pronounced "C" position, or a more rigid position in your back and legs. I'd like to hear what yall have to say on this minor point that carries some big implications in training and vaulting.

[KirkB]

Yeh, this is that whole straight-body swing thing that Agapit advocates in his Manifest.

It's very difficult for me to imagine how that would work in practice (either the way Agapit emphasizes it, or the way Petrov emphasizes it), since in my Bryde Bend I stressed an extreme C position with good forwards-leaning posture, and then swing from there. I know that some people regard this as a passive motion, and if you PAUSE in the C, then I agree. But if you're actively moving to an extreme C, and then IMMEDIATELY popping out of it to BEGIN your swing, then I think that's extremely active, and belongs in the "continuous chain" of body actions that you need to do to add energy to the system and keep moving forwards, rotationally, and (eventually) upwards. I had my best jumps when I did it this way.

And to answer your specific question (which we touched on in a recent thread, 3P0), I don't think that you can "finish your takeoff" and get a full "elastic stretch" to the C position if you're too RIGID. I'm not arguing against Petrov, but I am arguing against Agapit re this. I don't see that Petrov and Agapit are aligned in their thinking on this. Altius, what do YOU think?

My thoughts are that the stretch and the swing are both "full body" motions, and to say that you only stretch with one part of your body, and you swing with another part (or with your whole body) doesn't match physics. If you want an OPTIMAL elastic stretch, and then an OPTIMAL swing, you can't be holding anything in reserve. You whole body needs to be involved.

Actually, Agapit advocates no stretch at all ... IMMEDIATELY swing after takeoff! I don't get that.

If you check any of my earlier posts (perhaps 8-10 months ago), you might think that I'm arguing against myself today. I'm not. Back then, I believe what I said was that the EMPHASIS of your downswing needs to be INITIATED by your trail leg, but once you INITIATE your downswing, the entire body must be involved. I've always said that "it's exactly like in my hinge drill on the highbar". I still stand by that. If I'm changing my mind on this, it's only on how I EXPLAIN it ... not in how I DID it. Over the past few months, I've begun to realize that my "jump to the split" (as I called it) ... which means ALMOST the same as a "stretch to a C" (only maybe not quite as pronounced ... and the word JUMP includes and emphasizes the takeoff part ... which the word STRETCH ignores) ... is really a FULL BODY stretch and a FULL BODY swing. It takes all your muscles from top hand down to trail leg ankle to stretch INTO the C and then swing OUT OF IT. In my best years, maybe I had more strength than even I realized (so I'm told). So I probably did a "lat pull" type of motion with my arms whilst swinging my trail leg like mad (on the highbar AND pole) ... but just wasn't focusing on my arms. But it was definitely a FULL BODY MOTION!

3P0, I think this gets back to our discussion on the other thread ... about WHEN you need to be relaxed and WHEN you need to be rigid.

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Kirk

[altius]

The renowned reverse C is an illusion - yet another myth if you will. You should never try to get into or out of it. The illusion is caused by the fact that after take off the top arm is stretched way back behind the head by the impulse of the pole - the take off leg is still finished a powerful drive - and should never be artificially delayed - and the hips will often be pulled forward slightly when the athlete really accentuates the forward upward punch of the free knee/shin. If everything works you will get a position which pre stretches the body from the sternum to the knee of the take off leg which can improve the acceleration of the lower body towards inversion. In all of this tho the trunk must stay strong and straight from the shoulders to the buttocks - otherwise you are likely to have serious back problems.

Do not over intellectualise this. Remember that Bubka foused on run and take off - after take off it was Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar!!!

[ADTF Academy]

Can we make shirts that say..... When I pole vault I go Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar!!!


This might win the post of the month

[Tim McMichael]

Do not over intellectualise this. Remember that Bubka foused on run and take off - after take off it was Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar!!!

I'm pretty sure I am going to say this to everybody I ever coach.

[Tim McMichael]

If you want an OPTIMAL elastic stretch, and then an OPTIMAL swing, you can't be holding anything in reserve. You whole body needs to be involved.

. . .

If you check any of my earlier posts (perhaps 8-10 months ago), you might think that I'm arguing against myself today. I'm not. Back then, I believe what I said was that the EMPHASIS of your downswing needs to be INITIATED by your trail leg, but once you INITIATE your downswing, the entire body must be involved.

I couldn't agree more about the whole body being involved. The only thing I would add is that the swing can be initiated by the hands and trail leg at the same time. I also believe that the torso should stay relatively rigid while the shoulders and hips should be relaxed. This provides a solid foundation for the moving parts. If the shoulders are flexible the whole torso can come forward and not just the hips.

[KirkB]

The renowned reverse C is an illusion - yet another myth if you will. You should never try to get into or out of it. The illusion is caused by the fact that after take off the top arm is stretched way back behind the head by the impulse of the pole - the take off leg is still finished a powerful drive - and should never be artificially delayed ...

I underlined the part that I agree with the most ... but not the rest of it. The "reverse C" is simply a frame that you will see in slo-mo or stop-action vids ... nothing more. Of course you don't want to PAUSE in the C position. But if you don't strive for PASSING THRU the C position, then you'll never hit it, and your technique will be sub-optimal.

If we were to slo-mo Kjell Isaksson's vids (if we could only find some!), we'd probably see a fairly quick pop-in/pop-out of the C ... much quicker than most other vaulters ... back then or even today. But YOU'D STILL SEE THE "C" in at least one frame! Show me a link to a 5.80+ vault WITHOUT seeing a "C" and I'll recant.

In all of this tho the trunk must stay strong and straight from the shoulders to the buttocks - otherwise you are likely to have serious back problems.

I couldn't agree with you more ... if we're both talking about once the pole hits the box. If we're talking about BEFORE that instant in time, then I have to respectfully disagree, as there's not much force behind this "elastic stretch". Gymnasts do it all the time. It's only a problem when the impact of the pole hits you ... which shouldn't happen if you have a free takeoff. I think we can agree that if you're "under", you're going to have back problems. Personally, I never had any back problems ... EVER. Well, not until 2 years ago ... but that was unrelated to vaulting.

As a bit of a side question Altius, how does Colwick's technique fit into this? He's clearly not "strong and straight" ... he clearly has a "C" ... a two-legged "C". Not that I'm advocating his technique ... but I'm curious whether you think he's going to have "serious back problems"?

Do not over intellectualise this.

At the Intermediate Level, I agree. At the Advanced Level (this forum), we should discuss it. Also, I'm not "intellectualising" it ... I'm describing exactly what I felt and learned from personal experience. So it's not just a theory ... it works!

Kirk

[KirkB]

I couldn't agree more about the whole body being involved. The only thing I would add is that the swing can be initiated by the hands and trail leg at the same time.

I'll concede that (as explained above), but by "hands" you really mean the arms and shoulders, right? There's not much flexion or muscle action in your hands ... or even your wrists, right? You're just hanging on with your "hands".

I also believe that the torso should stay relatively rigid while the shoulders and hips should be relaxed. This provides a solid foundation for the moving parts. If the shoulders are flexible the whole torso can come forward and not just the hips.

Perhaps words are getting in the way of what a vid would show. And perhaps I don't really know EXACTLY how I swung on the highbar ... from hand to toe. But one thing I can say with the utmost certainty is ... MY SWING ON THE HIGHBAR WAS A VERY CLOSE SIMULATION OF MY SWING ON THE POLE!

Now whether my torso was stiff or not, we'll never know, since I have no vids. I'm quite sure I stretched to the extreme tho.

I dunno, Tim. The way you describe it, you're suggesting that maybe this is the way gymnasts should do all their gymnastic movements as well. I just see PV as an extension of what gymnasts do. I can't imagine a gymnast striving to keep his torso rigid whilst relaxing shoulders and hips. I'm not so sure that we have that much control over those distinct body parts either. Doesn't this kinda go against the grain of "having a NATURAL swing"?

When I speak of gymnasts, I don't just mean highbar. I mean any tricks on any apparatus where the back is arched, including floor ex ... rings ... vault ... some parallel bar tricks ... uneven bars and balance beam for girls ... just about everything but sidehorse.

Kirk

[tennpolevault]

I think that advising an athlete to be too elastic can mislead them into being too relaxed into the take-off, although I might often use a key like "keep the chest forward" or "feel the stretch through your core"...I would think it is very important to be solid and rigid throught he torso. From a physical therapist perspective....I train clients all day to learn to stabilize the core in all that they do. There are dozens of small and large muscles that must work together in a symphony to stabilize the core and create the foundation by which the "movers" create acceleration and torque on the pole. You need to find the balance between getting the elastic recoil from the inert tissues (fascia, ligament, tendon, etc) and keep your muscles in a position of maximal strength. If you allow the muscles to be stretched too far....you put them in a position of passive insufficiency or also described as a poor length-tension relationship. This is when the muscle fiber cross-bridges have very little overlap and are in a poor position to act quickly.

The way I see it, the initial quick stretch and move from arch to hollow (as a gymast does) is created by stretching the inert tissues of the anterior chest wall, shoulder ligaments, abdominal aponeurosis, and hip tissues. These tissues will recoil quickly when on such a stretch. Very soon after this recoil, the primary movers such as the lats, chest, serratus anterior, shoulder rotators, abs, and hip flexors must be firing to gain the powerful acceleration that we seek. To achieve this....the stabilizers of the spinal column must maintain some degree of stability, otherwise the "movers" may be put in such a situation that they have to delay before they can get back to a position of "active sufficiency". This can be seen throwing an overhead medicine ball with three quick steps. If the athlete leans back too much, the muscles to throw the ball have to wait until the spinal column is upright again to make their move. If the athlete maintains an upright posture and feels the stretch through the inert tissue.... the primary movers can kick in quickly after the elatic recoil has gotten the system moving.

[KirkB]

... This can be seen throwing an overhead medicine ball with three quick steps. If the athlete leans back too much, the muscles to throw the ball have to wait until the spinal column is upright again to make their move. If the athlete maintains an upright posture and feels the stretch through the inert tissue.... the primary movers can kick in quickly after the elastic recoil has gotten the system moving.

Interesting points! I'm wondering about the medicine ball analogy tho. Wouldn't a soccer ball be a closer analogy? If you feel that the "arch to hollow" action is closer to the medicine ball analogy, then I can understand the need for better torso rigidity and concern over back injuries if you're stretched "too much" (which will vary per athlete).

But with my combination of (a) strong back; (b) softish pole; and (c) free takeoff, I had no issues of jolting when the pole hit the box. It was very smooth. I would equate my style much more to a soccer throw-in than a medicine ball toss. I know there's lots of different weights of medicine balls, but I assume that they're all significantly heavier than a soccer ball.

Am I not the norm? I guess I already partly answer that, by mentioning that my back was exceptionally strong. But I wasn't BORN with a strong back (I don't think). Rather, I TRAINED it to be strong.

So if the "arch to hollow" is with less weight than a medicine ball (more like a soccer ball), does that change your opinion at all on the optimal technique advised? Rigid torso or "full elastic stretch to the C"?

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

I think that advising an athlete to be too elastic can mislead them into being too relaxed into the take-off, although I might often use a key like "keep the chest forward" or "feel the stretch through your core"...I would think it is very important to be solid and rigid throught he torso. From a physical therapist perspective....I train clients all day to learn to stabilize the core in all that they do. There are dozens of small and large muscles that must work together in a symphony to stabilize the core and create the foundation by which the "movers" create acceleration and torque on the pole. You need to find the balance between getting the elastic recoil from the inert tissues (fascia, ligament, tendon, etc) and keep your muscles in a position of maximal strength. If you allow the muscles to be stretched too far....you put them in a position of passive insufficiency or also described as a poor length-tension relationship. This is when the muscle fiber cross-bridges have very little overlap and are in a poor position to act quickly.

The way I see it, the initial quick stretch and move from arch to hollow (as a gymast does) is created by stretching the inert tissues of the anterior chest wall, shoulder ligaments, abdominal aponeurosis, and hip tissues. These tissues will recoil quickly when on such a stretch. Very soon after this recoil, the primary movers such as the lats, chest, serratus anterior, shoulder rotators, abs, and hip flexors must be firing to gain the powerful acceleration that we seek. To achieve this....the stabilizers of the spinal column must maintain some degree of stability, otherwise the "movers" may be put in such a situation that they have to delay before they can get back to a position of "active sufficiency". This can be seen throwing an overhead medicine ball with three quick steps. If the athlete leans back too much, the muscles to throw the ball have to wait until the spinal column is upright again to make their move. If the athlete maintains an upright posture and feels the stretch through the inert tissue.... the primary movers can kick in quickly after the elatic recoil has gotten the system moving.

Very interesting stuff, that makes sense to me. So if i understand correctly, the chest and torso do stretch, but not so much as to slow down the reaction time of other firing muscles.

What really threw me off was petrovs presentation of gymnastic exercises in reno in which he had his gymnast lay down and do pelvic thrusts. He made a point that the chest did not come up. Also, the athlete on his stomach in a "superman" posture, only bent at the pelvis. I suppose this just emphasizes that you don't train for a "C" position, it just happens, as tennpolevault described in the detail i was looking for. When i Intellectualize first, it helps me sum things up second, and i think i can do that now. As in all aspects of the swing, the best way to do it on a high bar is probably the best way to do it in the vault.