technical model

[carryabigstick]

This thread may belong in advanced tech section but I was thinking it was ironic that all three USA team members were classic "tuck and shoot" vaulters. All have extreme shortening of the radius but manage to jump on monster big poles.

[BethelPV]

You have this post in another spot already...

[ashcraftpv]

This thread may belong in advanced tech section

it does.....moved.

[decanuck]

What's ironic about that? I think it's pretty much expected. If all three members of the Russian team were tuck-and-shoot vaulters, now that would be ironic.

[powerplant42]

It just shows you how badly American is plagued by the tuck and shoot... Is a 6.4 meter jump not enough to knock some level of sense into elite vault coaches? I think some people REALLY need to get out more.

[VTechVaulter]

It just shows you how badly American is plagued by the tuck and shoot... Is a 6.4 meter jump not enough to knock some level of sense into elite vault coaches? I think some people REALLY need to get out more.

when did someone jumped 6.4 meters? am i missing something

[KirkB]

... I was thinking it was ironic that all three USA team members were classic "tuck and shoot" vaulters. All have extreme shortening of the radius but manage to jump on monster big poles.

I wouldn't call Brad a classic tuck-and-shooter. He has a very long, quick trail leg swing before he tucks.

Miles and Hartwig are classic.

I've heard all 3 of them in interviews, and they're all very articulate, bright men that seem to really know exactly what their bodies are doing. They make the minor adjustments in the big meets better than others. Smart vaulters.

I also think they might be making all the right mid-jump adjustments while in their tuck - which wouldn't be possible if they didn't tuck (as much)? Better than the younger, less experienced vaulters. My theory is that the tuck gives them more time to adjust. Maybe they can see the bar better in the tuck, compared to other models?

I'm very interested in hearing from someone that can defend the tuck/shoot model, because it's something that I just don't understand. I've never personally experienced it. I see it, it seems to work, but why I don't know.

I'm interested in the distinction between their intent and what they actually do. I'm guessing that Brad doesn't INTEND to tuck as much as Miles or Hartwig. I'm guessing that Hartwig's career (100+ >19') has been so reliable BECAUSE he tucks? i.e. other models aren't as reliable meet after meet?

Kirk

[volteur]

I believe that any movement towards a tuck from a pike is a compensation for inefficiencies earlier in the vault eg takeoff.

The pike is the correct movement, however, if it cannot be achieved for a variety of reasons, the a tuck will allow that vault to be completed, albeit with less energy than if the pike had been maintained.

volteur

ps decanuck ... i agree it would be very ironic if the Soviet vaulters were all tuck vaulters.

What is thought of Gibilisco's technique?

[KirkB]

volteur, I know what the Petrov modelists think of the tuck/shoot, so now I'm really hoping to hear from a genuine tuck/shooter that does it by INTENT.

I think that's the only way that we (those of us that have never "been there, done that") can fully comprehend it. And there's got to be something there, or there wouldn't be so many 19' vaulters that follow that model, eh?

And you do raise a good point. Now that you mention the pike, is it my imagination or does Brad pike more (and tuck less) on his better jumps?

Kirk

[volteur]

volteur, I know what the Petrov modelists think of the tuck/shoot, so now I'm really hoping to hear from a genuine tuck/shooter that does it by INTENT.

I think that's the only way that we (those of us that have never "been there, done that") can fully comprehend it. And there's got to be something there, or there wouldn't be so many 19' vaulters that follow that model, eh?

And you do raise a good point. Now that you mention the pike, is it my imagination or does Brad pike more (and tuck less) on his better jumps?

Kirk

Kirk, not that i jumped very high (5.10), however i was lucky my coach spent time in Formia with Vitaly and absorbed his technical model. He then trained me in this way, however, i didn't compete again after transforming my basic model. However, i believe 5.40 should be pretty commonplace for a decathlete these days. I did jump 5m off 10 strides during my training-only phase indicating 5.40 was not unrealistic.

I discovered on the high bar mainly (and to a lesser extent on the rings and ropes) that a pike gave me more vertical energy than a tuck. The problem with maintaining my pike was due to a lack of strength in the shoulder girdle and to a lesser extent in the torso. As these increased it became easier to hold the pike. Pilates and the gymnastic strength movement - the ab rock, also indicated to me the difference in potential energy between the tuck and the pike.

I looked at as many Brad vaults as youtube gave me and i can't tell really whether he tucks less on his best vaults. What i did notice is he tucks later on his 6.04 compared to the others. He still seems to fully tuck though on the 6.04.

I do think that the tuck causes a slowdown (or a passive phase as agapit terms it) which then translates to a slow down over the bar. The tuck does seem to allow for a very active shoot though.

Great work on your Bryde Bend! It will take some time for me to read it all but i am enjoying it. I wish i had enough knowledge (and maybe confidence) to put out my own thoughts for critical appraisal, although the view i have is far better enunciated by Agapit himself and i defer to his specific vault knowledge on the Petrov inspired model.

volteur

[dj]

Good morning

The one thing that I have observed for the best jumps of the “tuck” vaulters has been the speed of the inversion. I have tried to time the rotation around the shoulder axis.. from the point of the “back”/spine being parallel to the runway to the point that it is vertical.

It is such a short time that it can be hundredths of seconds.. between good and bad.. but the rotation has seemed to be more accelerated on Jeff Hartwig’s best jumps..

I have tried to solve that “force” issue going all the way back to Kozakiewicz, who “tucked” with frog legs.. but he inverted very quickly after a hugh plant.

During Vigneron’s and Bubka’s big “Bubka-Vigneron-Bubka” world record battle in 1984? During the same competition… Vigneron had less “tuck” on his best jumps..

Various jumpers, men and women, use some type of “shortening of the radius” to accelerate the body to an advantageous exit position.. Chelisa Johnson pulls one leg back to get in position and we see several variations of the "inversion move" that all have to play to the physics of the event... and that jumper.

If you “stop frame” many of Bubka’s jumps it might be misconstrued that he “tucks” to some degree..

My opinion, from a physics stand point, is it is the speed of the radius covered that makes the difference and that the athlete is “matching up” with the pole design they are using..

dj

[powerplant42]

powerplant42 wrote:
It just shows you how badly American is plagued by the tuck and shoot... Is a 6.4 meter jump not enough to knock some level of sense into elite vault coaches? I think some people REALLY need to get out more.


when did someone jumped 6.4 meters? am i missing something

Please don't make it like it didn't happen... it was a 6.4 jump over a much lower bar, and you know it.

All I'm saying is that the Petrov model, when learned as well as Bubka did, will ALWAYS be dominant over an equally sized opponent that has mastered the tuck and shoot...