The Swing

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

Do you like to swing?

I do!
25
69%
I don't know?
5
14%
I do not.
6
17%
 
Total votes: 36

User avatar
agapit
PV Follower
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:59 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN

The Swing

Unread postby agapit » Fri May 23, 2008 12:10 am

The Swing

Everyone seems to agree that swing is an important part of the vault. Let us look into this issue. Let's define what swing means. After we give it a proper name we can intelligently understand each other and have a ground for a productive discussion.

I do not use the term swing at all. I use term inversion and hopefully you will understand why after you read this post.

The natural swing.

It is a common knowledge that when a vaulter leaves the ground and arms meet resistance of the pole the lower part of the vaulter's body will move forward in a "swing". This swing will naturally continue until the center of gravity of the vaulter will reach the chord (line. see BTB) of the pole.

Obviously if we just used this natural swing, we would be clearing heights well below our grip.

Redirecting the natural swing.

Our objective in the vault actually is to raise the vaulter's center of gravity well above the grip. To do so, the vaulter must attempt to raise the center of gravity vertically as high as possible. I must say here that the final height of the center of gravity of the vaulter (bar clearance) has a direct correlation to the speed with which the center of gravity is rising.

There is only one way the vaulter can raise the center of gravity above the chord of the pole and it is do something with arms, pecs, abs, hip flexors.

The strength of the chain is determined by its weakest link.

This is a common way to describe a known mechanical principle. It does apply to our discussion. The vertical speed of the center of gravity will be determined by the weakest muscle group that facilitates the movement. In other words if a vaulter has weak hip flexors, it does not matter how strong his abs, pecs, or arms are the input from them will not exceed the strength of the hip flexors. This is also true for every link in the chain including hand grip on the pole. That is why we are using all sorts of adhesives to at least eliminate the weakness of the hand grip link.

Pecs are the weakest link.

I must tell you that we did not measure the relative strength of the muscle groups that participate in the movement due to lack of funds and equipment available for pole vault research, however we have conducted an extensive empirical research that led us to believe that out of all muscle groups participating in the movement the pecs are the weakest link.

Let me describe to you what results from the pecs work. If you keep your arms straight and use your pecs, abs and hip flexors you will produce, so called "Rowing action" that will result in the so called "pocket" or "tuck". Out of all four participating muscle groups; hands (grip), pecs, abs, hip flexors the pecs will be a limiting factor.

To experience it for yourself try to bring your hips on the horizontal bar to your grip without bending your arms just using your pecs. You will find it extremely difficult.

Getting into a handstand.

If you cannot do a hand stand from a "dead" hang on the horizontal bar you do not reach top 0.3% of the vaulter who could do this (for men). However, if you could do a "partial" hand stand you would probably realize that you can only do it if you pull with your arms (and lats not pecs). Now the reason for this is very simple this group of muscle is much stronger.

Where is the swing?

Now if you can get into a handstand from the "dead" hanging position on the horizontal bar the question is where is the swing?

If we established that the natural swing does not bring us much further than the chord of the pole and we established that the best way to get your center of gravity higher is trough the pull/push and not "row" what shell we call swing in pole vault?

The swing.

Action in the pole vault that results from inertia of the vaulter's body and pole resistance after the vaulter leaves the ground and meets resistance of the pole. The swing ends at the moment when the center of gravity begins to rise above trajectory of the natural swing.

Why these two sentences in the definition? Well I think it pretty much a common knowledge when the swing begins and the first sentence reflects this. The more difficult part is to understand when the swing ends. A PHD dissertation could be written about the second sentence, but let me put it in the basic terms.

When the center of gravity is raising above the natural swing trajectory this only can mean that some muscle groups making it to rise above the natural swing trajectory. At that moment the focus is not on the "swing" that is already happening, but on the action that is rising the center of gravity, therefore the focus must shift to inversion.

I must say here that the swing action is so swift that the vaulter will not easily perceive it. The quality of the swing or whip of the take –off foot as Alan Describes it in the pole vault Bible "From Beginner to Bubka and Isinbaeyeva too", depends largely on the quality of the jump/take-off. The take-off foot, in a quality take-off will remain behind ready to "swing".

This is very important, this "whip" helps to generate initial speed of the rotation which is then accelerated in the inversion.

Where Swing Ends?

If you are using free take-off/pre jump and you complete the jump, the swing will begin naturally after the foot leaves the ground and transition into inversion when the left foot has reached the vertical line drawn from the left(bottom) hand grip on the pole. This is where the swing ends.

Goal for the swing.

The goal must be to make swing (as it is defined do not confuse it with the inversion) as intense (short ) as possible, so inversion can begin sooner. Ideally the inversion should begin right after the foot leaves the ground, but in practice this never happens. The goal is to eliminate the time between the take-off and the inversion by making take-off so perfect that it does not require chest penetration and the inversion begins right after take-off.

This is a complex subject to describe it without graphic presentation and additional explanation, so if you would like to learn more or think you can have pleasure in demolishing this model, please come and see us in Slippery Rock, June 13-15.
Last edited by agapit on Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
there is no spoon... www.m640.com

User avatar
golfdane
PV Pro
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Unread postby golfdane » Fri May 23, 2008 5:07 am

Can't be at Slippery Rock :(

Yeah, the goal is to make the swing as powerfull and fast as possible, but it should match the polespeed and the harmonic frequency of the vaulter/pole system. For instance, if the body (CM) gets to the chord of the pole, and the chord of the pole hasn't reached a critical angle, will the vaulter end up being rejected or have very little penetration. Too slow a swing, and the vaulter ends up with lots of penetration, and probably too much, so the vaulter can't have an apex within 80 cm (and probably a very poor inversion).
The swing should match the harmonic frequency of the pole/vaulter system (to achieve a smooth and maximised load of energy into the pole without the system running out of steam (loss of polespeed) before the chord reaches vertical).

Imagine hanging from a spring. Kicking downward will make you bounce. Doing this with the same frequency of of the spring/bodymass system, and you'll bounce more and more. Too fast or to slow or out of sync, and the system will bounce irregular. Exact same when kids are on the swing. Big swings requires a slower rythm. Small swings require a faster rythm. Out of sync, and the swing hardly moves at all.

But in the end, jumping high is what it's all about. Maximise everything that goes before the swing, and you definately needs to swing as fast and hard as you can.

User avatar
golfdane
PV Pro
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Unread postby golfdane » Fri May 23, 2008 5:16 am

"Ideally the inversion should begin right after the foot leaves the ground"

Why?? Would it not move mass up the pole, thereby stealing polespeed at a very early stage?

User avatar
AVC Coach
PV Lover
Posts: 1386
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 9:21 am
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, Current Coach (All levels)
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Miah Sanders
Location: Black Springs, Arkansas
Contact:

Unread postby AVC Coach » Fri May 23, 2008 6:25 am

Great explaination of the swing agapit! Dead on! :yes:

User avatar
agapit
PV Follower
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:59 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN

Unread postby agapit » Fri May 23, 2008 7:56 am

golfdane wrote:The swing should match the harmonic frequency of the pole/vaulter system (to achieve a smooth and maximised load of energy into the pole without the system running out of steam (loss of polespeed) before the chord reaches vertical).



My view on this is that a vaulter should not time the swing/inversion to a pole penetration. The inversion should be done immediately after the jump is complete and as aggressively as possible to maximize the energy input.

The pole penetration is controlled by other measures such as completing the jump off the ground, adjusting the grip on the pole, adjusting the pole stiffness, etc.

In my opinion timing the inversion to the pole actions is a one of the biggest mistakes. It is definitely not going to lead to a vaulter working ahead of the pole, as I have described in previous posts.
there is no spoon... www.m640.com

OH-IOvaulter
PV Whiz
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:39 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, Former College Vaulter, Former High School Coach
Favorite Vaulter: Mondo Duplantis: 8yrs/9ft!!
Location: Columbus, Ohio - NAS Pensacola
Contact:

Unread postby OH-IOvaulter » Fri May 23, 2008 7:58 am

So Agapit, you are defining the swing as the only part of the vault after take off that is assisted by gravity (read: force is applied downward), and as soon as the left leg passes the aforementioned vertical line then the term inversion is incurred??
What is nice about this sport is that I am responsible for most everything.
-Sergei Bubka

User avatar
agapit
PV Follower
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:59 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN

Unread postby agapit » Fri May 23, 2008 8:20 am

golfdane wrote:"Ideally the inversion should begin right after the foot leaves the ground"

Why?? Would it not move mass up the pole, thereby stealing polespeed at a very early stage?


This is why you control this not by holding the pole, but making the inversion with the straighter body will overall keep the center of gravity lower for a longer time. This is better than timing the swing and shortening it later to fit in the allowed for the jump time.
there is no spoon... www.m640.com

User avatar
agapit
PV Follower
Posts: 581
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:59 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN

Unread postby agapit » Fri May 23, 2008 8:24 am

OH-IOvaulter wrote:So Agapit, you are defining the swing as the only part of the vault after take off that is assisted by gravity (read: force is applied downward), and as soon as the left leg passes the aforementioned vertical line then the term inversion is incurred??


Swing is not assisted by the gravity. It is a result of the run up generated inertia of the body and the reaction of the muscles from stretch following the completion of the jump off the ground.
there is no spoon... www.m640.com

User avatar
golfdane
PV Pro
Posts: 418
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:14 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Contact:

Unread postby golfdane » Fri May 23, 2008 9:26 am

agapit wrote:My view on this is that a vaulter should not time the swing/inversion to a pole penetration. The inversion should be done immediately after the jump is complete and as aggressively as possible to maximize the energy input.

The pole penetration is controlled by other measures such as completing the jump off the ground, adjusting the grip on the pole, adjusting the pole stiffness, etc.

In my opinion timing the inversion to the pole actions is a one of the biggest mistakes. It is definitely not going to lead to a vaulter working ahead of the pole, as I have described in previous posts.


I have a hard time distinguishing when you mean swing, and when it's inversion. Perhaps my definitions are wrong. I see the swing as the pendular action of the CM until it passes the chord, where I see the the inversion is initiated (roll-up the pelvis and get upside down, so to speak).

I agree, that penetration is indeed controlled by factors like take-off, runway speed, weight, pole stiffness, but my point is, that there's no point in trying to swing faster than the frequency of the system. IOW, not being overly obsessed by speed (unless it's runway speed).

I agree, that the swing should be initiated as fast as possible, but I also feel there's a certain amount of arching that is desirable to prestretch the hip flexors and abs, in order to have a vicious kick, and thereby maximise energy input into the pole (at the desired time).

I'm not talking about a conscious timing here. The timing will happen naturally when the athlete learns to recognize the input he gets from his body.

User avatar
vault3rb0y
PV Rock Star
Posts: 2458
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:59 pm
Expertise: College Coach, Former College Vaulter
Lifetime Best: 5.14m
Location: Still Searching
Contact:

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Fri May 23, 2008 5:54 pm

So are the pecks necessarily the weakest link in the chain, or are there exercises to do that can make the pecks as strong, or even close to as strong, as the other links in the chain? In just seeing it in my mind, it seems like it would not be directly proportional, and that having enough peck strength to even come close to a handstand would allow a vaulter to maximize more of their hip flexors, abs, etc, but that having only a little more peck strength could go a long way. That the extra hip flexor and ab muscles could make up a little for the lack of peck strength, if you have the correct timing and firing of these muscles as you invert to a handstand. In summary, its hard for me to get my head around your peck muscles (or lackthereof) making extra ab and hip flexor strength obsolete until you increase your peck muscle. Maybe the link in the chain analogy doesnt apply that literally?
The greater the challenge, the more glorious the triumph

OH-IOvaulter
PV Whiz
Posts: 126
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:39 pm
Expertise: Former High School Vaulter, Former College Vaulter, Former High School Coach
Favorite Vaulter: Mondo Duplantis: 8yrs/9ft!!
Location: Columbus, Ohio - NAS Pensacola
Contact:

Unread postby OH-IOvaulter » Sat May 24, 2008 12:10 am

I understand that the swing is a natural reaction to the take off but if the take off leg is not exactly perpendicular to the ground the moment after take off then for the fraction of a second that the swing goes from its take off state to perpendicular gravity has to assist it, even though it may be very minimal; and after the leg passes perpendicular then gravity acting on it once again, am I not correct?
What is nice about this sport is that I am responsible for most everything.

-Sergei Bubka

User avatar
AVC Coach
PV Lover
Posts: 1386
Joined: Fri May 23, 2003 9:21 am
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, Current Coach (All levels)
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Miah Sanders
Location: Black Springs, Arkansas
Contact:

Unread postby AVC Coach » Sat May 24, 2008 6:19 am

I understand that the swing is a natural reaction to the take off but if the take off leg is not exactly perpendicular to the ground the moment after take off then for the fraction of a second that the swing goes from its take off state to perpendicular gravity has to assist it, even though it may be very minimal; and after the leg passes perpendicular then gravity acting on it once again, am I not correct?


I understand what you're saying, but you really need to simplify this process in your mind.
1. Finish the take-off with maximum force
2. Trail leg "finishes" to parallel to runway
3. Swing to the top as fast as possible


Return to “Pole Vault - Advanced Technique”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests