Bottom Arm and Pole Bend Revisited

[Tim McMichael]

If the bottom arm has nothing to do with the bend of the pole, as many here have suggested; why then does the pole not start to move until the bottom arm has nearly stopped moving back?

In the extreme instance shown here. The arm must begin applying some resistance as the pole begins to bend, though by default. It simply cannot move back any farther and must begin to impact the pole at the end of its backward movement. Also, as impressive as this jump is, can anyone find one world class vaulter whose bottom arm collapses this much?

http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/vie ... 63&start=0

See feofanova’s positions by way of comparison. I believe she has the freest takeoff among the women currently vaulting.

http://www.stabhoch.com/pages/20040824_ ... a_475.html

[vaulter870]

i have to agree that she has the best take off i have seen in a while. and for being shorter she is still able to compete with the taller girls because of that. it is so important to attempt to achive that position at takeoff because from that kind of a takeoff you have control over your jump and as a whole energy is transfered much better. very hard to do though.

[stavhoppare]

Here are two diametricly opposed statements: The bottom arm straightens because the pole bends by being loaded from the top arm!!! The pole does NOT BEND because the bottom arm straightens.

The vault MUST be taken/observed as a whole, not as a part. Feofanova/Markov look like they have great takeoffs....but what happens afterward. If one observes their position as the pole is straight at their inversion, their center of gravity (C/G) is way past the pole. They are going out, not up. Bubka NEVER had a "free" takeoff and his inversion was spectacular. "Isi" had a great inversion on a bent pole....fabulous..why is she changing now??? Her neuromuscular patterns have been set. She can try to change to a free take off but....UNDER PRESSURE...AT HIGH HEIGHTS IN BIG COMPETITIONS, THE LEARNED MECHANICS WILL ALWAYS PERSERVERE.

"Isi" was taught correctly from day 1........anyone trying to change technique after years of pattern setting is playing with fire. SO...what can a college coach do in the USA...recruit a very good HS vaulter (15'6"+)...and try to change technique??????????? Very difficult......Great coaches and great athletes perhaps can make SOME change (Mack & Bemiller)..........but for the most..........get them stronger, get them faster, get them more focused......and plan....under pressure, that the vaulter will go back to their old habits.

Be as tall as possible at takeoff......JUMP at take off with a very high plant....and....
RUN FAST............HOLD HIGH..........CARRY A BIG STICK!!!!!!!!!

[ADTF Academy]

Shoe me an elite jumper on a 13 foot pole that is actually trying to go upside down. If they are locked out at all they will over roll the pole and never do it.


If you draw a straight line from her top arm to the box she is staying directly in line with the imaginary pole cord. I wrote a long post on this that obviously no one read. She is demonstrating my post perfectly.

[vaultman18]

OK Tim I tried the experiment with only using the top hand. I could bend the pole but I was completely out of control. I still do not think that you need a huge bottom arm but I do think you should hit your take-off very hard with both hands moving up. So Tim as for now I think you were correct about there having to be some initial force applied. I still don't feel like the bottom arm needs to push forward or up. After the initial bend, the vaulter is merely hanging for a very short time then swinging as fast as possible.

What I have noticed is that if the vaulter's take-off is under the bottom hand moves much closer to the forehead and the swing happens without much effort and the jump can be flat. But when the take-off is free and the vaulter jumps up the vaulters hands can be much higher (over the head). If the vaulter takes-off free but flat (no jump) it is very bad the vaulter must jump up (pre-jump) to avoid sinking and must intiate the swing. Unlike the an under take-off though the swing must be delayed, but there is no pushing involved instead trying to complete the take-off and fully extend the jump leg behind the vaulter and leading with the chest.

I haven't looked back but I think Tim may have said what I just did or parts anyway. And Altius may have as well. I hopefully will get to talk with Agapit more this week and see if you can gain more control only using the top hand. So Tim I think I must concede for now.

[altius]

" Bubka NEVER had a "free" takeoff"" - well I suppose it depends on how you define a 'free take off' - and that is important because more fights have been started over poor definitions than almost any other cause.

However if you define a free take off as one in which the pole is not loaded until after the vaulter leaves the ground then it is clear from any observation of Bubka that he almost invariably achieved a free take off and, as he said in Jamaica - he occasionally managed the prejump take off that he was always aiming for.

How do we determine whether the pole is loaded or not? Well it would seem reasonable to assume that if the pole is virtually straight - and the right arm is still covering the ear - at or immediately after the athlete leaves the ground - then the pole has not been loaded.

With regard to Feofanova and Markov - their problems occur - for differing reasons -immediately after take off. Markov drops the right leg while Feofanova overly delays the forward whip of the left leg. In both cases the result is that the atlhete does not rotate into inversion fast enough and so is unable to cover the pole effectively -it is for this reason that they are unable to attain the vertical position on the pole characteristic of Bubka's vaulting at his best. That said both athletes did/do occasionally ahieve better positions -notably Markov on his 6.05 jump in Edmonton.

Finally it may be worth be pointing out that many other athletes - including some as young as 12 years of age can and do manage to achieve not only a free take off but a prejump. Take a look at both Vicky and Lizzy Parnov - whose images have already been posted on PVP.

[Tim McMichael]

can anyone find one world class vaulter whose bottom arm collapses this much?

LOL, I have answered my own question. Billy Olson collapsed his left arm as much as possible. We used to call him fiberhead. His plant was criticized a lot for not having a straighter left arm, but I always thought that there had to be something good about it or he would not have been setting world records every other week.

I think I know what is going on behind the push/pull debate, but it is going to take a lot of work to lay it out. I just have to get motivated. Is it just me, or has the board been a little dead for the past month or so?

[smokinvaulter1]

It's not dead tim I am just taking notes and working on my jump LOL.

[VTechVaulter]

can anyone find one world class vaulter whose bottom arm collapses this much?

kjell isakson, earl bell, patrik kristianson (spelling?). there are a few

[vaultman18]

Ok I have done nothing but think and talk about this for the last 5 days. The bottom arm does not bend the pole, even initially. Pushing at all will only delay the swing and force you to row and try to get in the pocket. I wish these were entirely my own thoughts but they are not. Agapit and I talked about this for hours and I now see the magnitude of this concept. If Agapit wants to respond I will let him go futher on the concept. Reread the Manifesto and 6.40 framework posts as he gave all the information you need. I know he will not argue on this board about it. You must think about this and not just post the first thought you get. Sleep on it, dream about and then see if you get it, I have.