Pole Vault Manifesto

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

Is 18ft vault possible for women

Poll ended at Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:12 pm

Yes
34
56%
No
27
44%
 
Total votes: 61

Stensol
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Unread postby Stensol » Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:26 am

I'd like to jump back into this discussion by asking folks like agapit, altius, Tim McMichael, or anyone else who is interested what the vaulter is actively doing to put energy into the pole and keep it moving forward directly after the take-off. It can't be simply hanging onto the pole while performing a long pendulum swing with a powerful trail leg kick up to the top hand. This "activeness" I'm trying to get a description of seems to be a key to proper timing, which in turn allows the vaulter to truly experience a catapault effect, due to the fact that the activeness adds energy to the pole.

Is it simply a very slight delay in the form of extending the take-off foot while driving upward/forward, allowing the contracted muscles of the front part of the body to explode into the whip-kick long pendulum of the trail leg? The BTB book suggests that this take-off leg/ankle extension makes for a wicked fast swing that provides the pole with energy. Sounds great to me. But isn't there something else?

I'm intrigued that both agapit and Tim McMichael have mentioned "pulling" at this point in the vault. Does this pulling motion play an important or even critical part in allowing the vaulter to "keep the pole moving"?

I once had it described to me that the vaulter is actually trying to actively apply pressure from the hands and arms on the pole, in a direction from the top to the middle of the pole at all times after take-off (until release), regardless of the state/position of the pole bend. See, even that explanation is confusing. All I know is that this "activeness" can't be a pulling on the pole with both hands toward the body or a pushing of the pole away from the body. Whatever it is, it sure seems to be pretty important!

Would anyone care to elaborate on what the vaulter is actively doing to keep the pole moving forward after take-off besides the obvious of hanging onto the pole after having a great take-off?

Sorry Tim, but I've never personally experienced what you're saying about "pulling", so it's hard for me to visualize exactly what you mean! Maybe you could elaborate? :confused:

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Unread postby ADTF Academy » Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:29 pm

Tim, I missed this post by you. I must have fallen asleep and wasn't paying attention with all the STUFF that is posted here from time to time. By the way excellent post.


Almost every concept Tim talked about goes back to the post I made a while back on Pole Rotation and Big bend vs Small bend. As well as the post on the 3 Classes of levers used in the vault.


Stensol


As I have stated before and will continuously state. What model are you curious about?

Power/Pressure Vaulters (Jeff Hartwig as an example of this type of vaulter, this is in no way about him personally but the style of vault)

More of a power style which utilizes the the bottom arm Upward pressure (to the point of almost locked out well for some locked out bottom arm) to apply additional pressure into the pole creating a fulcrum action and a slight pulling down with the top arm. This bottom arm will remain out there during the majority of the flight till they are ready to extend and turn. Usually will see a slight sinking action in their vaulter as they put in a larger bend into the pole during the takeoff. Also the bend will appear to be lower on the pole and will usually use (and is recommended for this style) a pacer pole. They tend to bend lower due to the lower sail peice location in the pole.

The power vaulters perform more of a hanging motion from the pole during the takeoff and the period prior to their swing will appear to be and is longer. They will stay behind the pole for a longer period of time. They must use more of a rowing motion of the arms (even though so many say this is wrong blah blah blah) so that they can rotate the pole into the pit far enough that the pole won't uncoil to near or slightly less then vertical and put them into danger.

These type of vaulter will also need to perform more of a tucking motion due to the fact that they put a larger bend into the pole to reduce the pole cord and allow them to rotate longer poles into the pit. However this overbending of the pole will cause it to uncoil with greater velocities. The vaulter must therefore shorter their axis of rotation so that they can get into a position to utilize the uncoiling of the pole and what ever energy is still available during the flyaway.

This vaulters don't and shouldn't attempt to get completly inverted before the pole finishes its uncoiling process. They should be trying to get launched and pike. Meaning they must stay with the pole in a tucked position slightly longer to give the pole more time to rotate into the pit. If the extension occurs to early their poles will usually not rotate completely into the pit and will come up short. Also due to the late extension and rotation they will not be able to get completely on the backside (runway side of the pole) and will therefore get away from their poles big time on top so that they can once again be launched on big big sticks.

However, Personally I do not think this style is very efficient. The main reason is this. When a pole bends it does reduce the poles effective pole cord length making it easier to rotate into the pits. However, it takes energy to uncoil a pole. With these larger bends it will take more of the energy you applied into the pole and thus not be available later in the vault. Secondly, Personally I am big on pole rotation and safely rotating poles into the pits. This style puts a great deal of stress on timing and increases the chances of landing shallow. Their is a lot of confusion with this style. Many want to go to the inverted state and are against rowing their hands let they stilll like the upward pressure with the bottom hand.

Swing Vaulter (Isinbsveja; she is an example. this is in no way a comment about her vaulting. It is about the style)


This style using the takeoff to set up the swing. Everything in this model is about elastic energy. Energy that is created by tension (as an example put your hand flat on the table and tap your finger over and over as fast as you can till it starts to fatique. Then with your palm flat on the table lift that finger up and feel the tendons stretch and then release your finger. It will snap down on the table quicker and harder than you were able to tap it.) This energy creation is above and beyond your physical relam. It calls on your strength as well natually and automatically. It is not a model you foce to occur. In the opposite it happens and should happen almost automatically as long as you set it up during the plant. This is why the generic statement swing hard and faster is pointless. It should be swing smarter and set up your swing by loading your body. BE ELASTIC!!!!! The focus of the takeoff is on setting up rotation of the pole.

A pole cord (the visble or invisble cord from your top hand to the pole tip in the box) is the main area of focus. Based on the amount of energy you apply into the pole during the takeoff and the angle at which you apply it (takeoff angle - the degree at which you hips raise when you leave the ground before you show any deviation from normal running mechanics) and the pole angle at takeoff (this is based on how tall you are and the style of takeoff you hand, pre jump or free. The angle the pole makes before it begins to bend).

The second portion of the pole rotation equation is your ability to stay in line with the pole cord (rather it is visible or invisible). The closer you can stay to the pole cord the easier it will rotate meaning the higher you can hold. This second second portion is vital and what allows the swing style to occur.

The freetakeoff, prejump, continuous takeoff topics have been over done so I won't go into them here. But they set up the vault and are vital to learn and perform. Buy BTB Alan does a great job setting it up.

Where I think myself and some other coaches go a little radical in the non traditional vaulting way is this. With an upward pressure into the pole with the bottom arm. There will be an opposite force back through your arm keeping your shoulders back. You know Newton and his laws. Now the bottom arm pole goes the opposite way. It is an attempt in my model and teaching to keep you in line with the pole cord. The bottom arm is for stearing purposes. The bottom arm pull basically is a tension movement where by your are applying a pressure with your bottom arm pulling in the direction above your head. Not down!!! As a side note I like to see the elbow out not down to make this easier. it will also aid in being able to move the pole bend to the side easier.

The elastic swing is simply set up from the stretching of the muscles in your stomach and quad. When this snaps or releases for better words a tremondous amount of power and force is generated to create angular momentum resulting in your swing. The object of this is to do nothing that will stop it from occuring (folding at the waist) Keep a long pendulum swing will keep the force application on the pole longer so that more energy is being applied to give you time to reach inversion before the pole finishes its uncoiling process.

This just scratches the surface.

Pick a style and learn it and why. There are plenty of quality coaches teaching both styles. Learn which one you want to do and find a coach teaching that style.

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Unread postby Stensol » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:10 am

Well, this discussion thread is all about a Petrov-inspired 6.40 model, which I'm assuming is along the same lines as ADTF Academy's "Swing Vaulter" description. That's the model that I'm focusing on here.

Check out these photos on ADTF Academy's website. You see Markov, Bubka, and Isinbajeva in the "C" position after take-off in photos 3, 4, and 5? My question: WHAT EXACTLY ARE THEY DOING WITH THEIR ARMS? That is, what sort of pressure are they putting on the pole with their hands/arms? In what direction? What's the purpose of this? Is this arm pressure critical to their successful swing-to-full-inversion timing? Is what they're doing akin to "staying active" and thus a (the?) key to keeping the pole moving?

As Tim McMichael pointed out, what it looks like the vaulter is doing in photos, on video, or even live might not tell the full story about what the vaulter is actually doing.

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Unread postby Stensol » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:16 am

Did a bit of homework and found some interesting insights from agapit on another website about the second phase of the vault:
    * "Swinging" from the take-off until complete inversion is a natural motion resulting from a great take-off. That is, vaulters don't need to consciously start swinging directly after take-off; it just happens.

    * A faster swing provides the pole with greater energy than a slower swing.

    * You can train yourself to swing faster by using "a pull-like arm motion and secondly use abs, chest, shoulders and hip flexors, but it all starts with arms. So you can call it what you want, but to speed your inversion up, you need to use your arm muscles. To direct the swing in the desired direction arms will act in the pull-like action."
OK, hang on a second here. A "pull-like action" is referred to by agapit not only in the link referred to above, but in a the PVP topic on height clearance that he started (there here writes, "...Yes, yes, what I am saying you must pull on the pole immediately after the take-off..."). And let me repeat that Tim McMichael has also written about this earlier in this thread: "Believe me, I was trying to pull and swing the instant my pole hit the back of the box. The harder I pulled, the faster my swing went and the more my pole moved."

I guess when I've been reading the word "pull", I've been visualizing pulling the pole with both arms directly into the body, which didn't seem at all correct. If I hang on a pull-up bar and then pull my body up only a couple of centimeters and then hold it, then my upper body feels very active.

Maybe this is what agapit is referring to as a "pull-like action" and what Tim is referring to when he writes about "being active throughout the entire jump."

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Unread postby ADTF Academy » Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:42 pm

Stensol wrote:[list]* "Swinging" from the take-off until complete inversion is a natural motion resulting from a great take-off. That is, vaulters don't need to consciously start swinging directly after take-off; it just happens.

* A faster swing provides the pole with greater energy than a slower swing.

* You can train yourself to swing faster by using "a pull-like arm motion and secondly use abs, chest, shoulders and hip flexors, but it all starts with arms. So you can call it what you want, but to speed your inversion up, you need to use your arm muscles. To direct the swing in the desired direction arms will act in the pull-like action."


The answer to this question is the famous phrase that I mentioned before about being elastic. Look at those pictures you pointed out on my website. Notice how stretched their top arms are. How stretched their stomachs are. How stretched their quads are. They are what I am refering to as being elastic and setting up a powerful stretch reflex action to occur.

Now to answer your first post, I have never worked with those three vaulters, I have never talked to them, I have never talked to their coaches directly. However, from those I have talked to that have talked to their coaches and what I beleive is going on here we go.

First lets look at their bottom arms!

Bubka demonstrates what I look for and coach perfectly. I call it the chicken wing. Elbow out allowing for him to get into the Pocket as many call it. THis position gives him an open window to take all the momentum generated at takeoff to initate pole rotation. Since his bottom arm is not locked out his body is allowed to load completely with energy in the form of numerous stretch reflexs hence being elastic.

What I teach and talk about is from this moment the bottom arm pull is a pulling sensation in the direction above the heads to assist and add to the unleasing of the stretch reflexs. Will you provide a lot of energy probably not but every newton counts. This motion also adds in keeping your upper body in line with the poles imaginary pole cord if the pole is bent. Staying with this pole cord will allow the pole to rotate with less energy than if you stay away from it.

Next a look at the top arm!!!

When someone says perform a pulling action in the traditional sense of the word pull. They however do mean perform a pulling action just not in the traditional sense. As an example when most people hear perform a pulling action they traditional think a basic bicep curl motion with the top arm. It must remain straight. This is not what we mean by perform a pulling action with the top arm.

However look at the famous BUBKA motion (dang I don't have that picture up on my site anymore. I will put it back up.) Hence the shoulder drop (downward pressure with the shoulder down and under you) and hip thrust. Think about this for a moment what does it cause your hands to do. It perform a pulling motion on the top of the pole in the direction your shoulders are pressing. Are you actually pulling with the hands ie. performing a bicep curl. NO, but you are pulling with your hands because your shoulders are violently pulling/pressing down and under you to aid in raising the hips. This is basically an upside down romamian deadlift. A straight leg deadlift where by you are to remain as stiff and rigid as possible and press the shoulder fire the gletus and straighten out. On a pole it is slightly different in that you must emphasis on keep the quads tight or your feet will fall off the back side (another story another post)

Also this Bubka motion adds energy into the pole, maybe not a great deal of energy but every newton helps in keep the pole in a coiled state slightly longer hence giving you more time to reach inversion without wasting energy. Thus more energy is available for you to use during your flyaway. There should be NO pauses and no passive moments from the moment your foot leaves the ground till the moment you let go of the pole.


Stensol wrote:I guess when I've been reading the word "pull", I've been visualizing pulling the pole with both arms directly into the body, which didn't seem at all correct. If I hang on a pull-up bar and then pull my body up only a couple of centimeters and then hold it, then my upper body feels very active.

Maybe this is what agapit is referring to as a "pull-like action" and what Tim is referring to when he writes about "being active throughout the entire jump."



Ok now rethink this statement. Imagine the pull action with the top arm is not a bicep curl but a pressing action of the shoulders once the hips are above your shoulders (hence a bubka on a high bar). The bottom arm pulling action is more of a motion to keep your chest as active as possible continuously moving through the vault so that you can utilize the elastic components available to your muscles. On the other hand If upward pressure is provided the chest/shoulders are pushed backwards and a negitive motion occurs lesser stretch reflex occurs and a slower overall swing. The bottom arm is more of the traditional sense of the word bicep curl if you must but in a direction above the head which is key so that you stay elastic.

This should start to clear up the picture more I hope. It is all about loading the pole with energy. Loading your body with energy and then allowing your body to use that energy efficently and natually to swing inversion. The speed of this swing will depend on your overall stretch and the efficiency of your body to load and unload. The pulling action is utilized to add in provided more energy so the pole does not uncoil to quickly. Vaulters using this method usually have a smaller higher bend in the pole during takeoff. Their swing must be active, agressive, fast and precise if they want to beat the pole to inversion.

I hope this helps clear things up more as to what coaches are meaning with the new term "PULL"

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Unread postby Tim McMichael » Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:21 pm

I am glad ADTF Academy has explained the pull in greater detail than I have. It is super hard because most everyone has the image of a pull up with the biceps bending the arms. I could meditate on it for a month and not come up with a worse thing to do during the takeoff. There is a huge difference between a pull through the biceps and a pull through the shoulders and lats against the resistance of a moving pole and swinging body. In many ways the swing is the pull. The hands help initiate it, but the speed of the swing increases the pressure in the hands, and the pressure in the hands increases the speed of the swing. They work together in a synergy that creates tremendous power. It is important to remember that this makes the pole move too. All that energy has to go somewhere, and it will take the path of least resistance.

Someone was doing an extensive study on the vault back in the eighties – I can’t remember who. But they asked all the vaulters at nationals what we thought was the most critical measurement that could be used to define the vault. I thought for a long time about that. Almost everyone said speed in the last ten meters of the run. I thought that pressure in the hands was the defining aspect, but there is no way to measure it, so I didn’t say anything. I believe that the athlete with the most pressure in the hands and who maintains it the longest will be the one who achieves the highest vault (provided they can find a way around the crossbar.)

In my own jump –which I talk about too much, but it is the only one I really know – I never thought about the direction of the pull. I tried to get as much stretch through my body as possible at the takeoff, and then I pulled as directly against the pressure of the pole as hard and as long as I could. As my technique got better over the years, I learned that minute differences in pressure and timing made big differences in the quality of a given jump. If my plant was tall enough and my takeoff good enough, the swing was effortless and I could pour as much power into it as possible with my hands. No matter how fast I moved, I couldn’t get ahead of it, and it couldn’t run off and leave me. There was a synchronicity that culminated in getting launched.

I found it was best to pull predominantly with the right hand through the bottom of the jump and predominately with the bottom hand through the middle. This softened the pole through the penetration and stiffened it during the recoil. I also found that it was crucial to begin to lay my shoulders back and initiate the extension a fraction of a second before the bottom hand really kicked in. If I was behind the timing on that, an ugly flag out resulted. Eventually, the pull became the vault for me. I felt the quality of my technique and timing entirely through my hands.

I hope this helps with a definition of the pull. I guess what I am trying to add here is that it is a critical aspect of at least one vault (my own) and can be refined to such a degree that it informs the entire motion.

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Unread postby OUvaulterUSAF » Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:44 pm

wo xi huan cheng gan tiao.

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Unread postby ADTF Academy » Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:27 pm

Must have been sleeping when this post was made. Interesting!!!!

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Unread postby Stensol » Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:29 am

Great info from ADTF Academy and Tim! I'm finding the contributions of Tim McMichael in PVP to be invaluable in the sense that he is searching to articulate concepts that are hard to describe and grasp in words and even difficult to see conclusively in video.

Think about everything that this thread about the 6.40 model stands for, consider the details presented in the From Beginner to Bubka book, and then reflect a bit on Tim McMichael's accomplishments as a pole vaulter. How much higher could Tim have vaulted had he been employing the key ideas inherent in a Petrov-inspired 6.40 model? My belief: not considerably higher. This isn't to denigrate Tim's abilities, rather it's just the opposite. He is seeing in this thread descriptions of what he can confirm through experience, and then he's adding critical information to this discussion. Tim is really on to something here with this "pull swing" notion, and it would great if folks like he and ADTF Academy in their positions of leadership really looked into this much more closely. The reason I say this is that I believe that there are very few clear writings out there on this topic.

Take a look at Jelena Isinbajeva's 4.91 clearance at the 2004 Olympic Games. View it over and over and over in a continuous loop at normal speed. Think about what agapit, ADTF Academy, and Tim McMichael are saying in this discussion about "pulling".

The reason I chose an Isinbajeva jump is because I can relate to it. Her height, strength, speed, pole length/test weight, and grip height are characteristics I can personally relate to. I also had a chance to see her up close last summer when my kids were getting her autograph, and she isn't physically imposing in any way. I got to thinking about why she was clearly superior to all other women pole vaulters. It's naturally a combination of many factors, but when you view her top clearances on video, it hasn't been entirely clear to me why it is that she's "gets launched" much more than any of the other top women. Yeah I know, she's on a pole whose test weight is seriously over her own body weight, she puts herself in a great position to exploit the recoil, etc., etc. But what is it that makes her so superior? It's not that she runs that much faster, holds that much higher, etc. than her competitors. It has to be something in her technique that is the deciding factor, something that doesn't appear to be readily observable.

I believe that a key difference in her technique lies in the descriptions that Tim McMichael makes in his post directly above here. A super effective "pull swing" really could be that important, all other things being equal.

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Unread postby dj » Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:03 am

good morning

these are great descriptions...........

tom hintinhaus.. 1980.. described his jump as.. "bend the pole into a high bar... and then do a free hip into a hand stand.."

please throw t-macks trials 5.90 jump into the mix... it might be missing a little MPS at takeoff and slightly.. under.. but i feel it was a free takeoff...and the "numbers" (positions from takeoff to clearence) show it was one of the best ever.

i think he "accelerates" the swing through the hands as tim McMichael is describing.. and practices a pop-up drill called a "superman" where he swings-wraps and extends up the pole... just the way he did on the bending pole...

later

dj
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Unread postby fx » Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:44 am

Aren't you guys describing what some people call "rowing"? I know a lot of people will start yelling at me, I know its not actually like a row the way you would row a canoe or wutever, but thats just one way I've heard it called. I guess the best way I could describe it would be like going down to touch your toes while keeping your arms extended. Just want to make sure is this what you guys are talking about?

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Unread postby fx » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:11 pm

I have a picture in case u didnt get that weird explanation, but I made it in paint, and I cant put it on putfile because it is a .bmp so if u wanna see it got any ideas on how to get it up on the internet?


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