The Swing

[golfdane]

PP, you can't compare your virtual rock carrying rocket to locking or not locking. Last I checked, my limbs were still attached to my body. IOW, the rock is not "fired" towards a hole or toward a ceiling. The rock is either hanging on a steel wire or a rubberband. The energy in the system remains constant (in reality, some energy is returned into heat in the accelaration and decelaration of the rock).

True, locking can feel like it transfers more energy, but only because it does so over a shorter period of time.

Now, one could argue, that "locking" can prevent the lead leg from ending up in a non favorable position.

Check this album taken in Formia by my good friend, Ole:
http://olekvist.spaces.live.com/photos/ ... 7488!3286/
There are some awesome shots of Isi and a few other (Pyrek, Jeng, Petrov, Bubka, Idowu.....).

[volteur]

Kirk, i'm sorry but i'm going to have to disagree with you a bit here as PP has done

The physcial center that you refer to is normally called the CoG (Center of Gravity) or CoM (Center of Mass). CoM is probably best to use, since we're referring to the middle point of your body MASS. During the run, we're referring to the middle point of the athlete-pole system's MASS.

The CoM is typically somewhere near mid-body. ~10cm in from then navel? Ha! Ha! I explain this in detail, lest you think Bubka's CoM might be on his navel.

this center of gravity, center of mass, physical center, navel chakra or whatever is a very real and feelable thing. To be precise it exists right at the front of the spine about an inch below the navel. If you were cut exactly in half through the coronal plane it would be precisely along the cut and if you were cut in half through the sagittal plane again it would be precisely along the cut. Guess what, if you were cut in half along the transverse plane it would again be along the cut line. Intersect all 3 planes and you have the center.

I prefer referring to the "lead knee drive" rather than "hip drive" because it's more actionable. If my coach told me to drive my hips on takeoff, I wouldn't know what action to take. But if he told me to drive my lead knee forwards and up, I'd know exactly what he meant.

this is where we differ greatly because my coach always referred to driving the hip rather than the knee. More difficult to drive the hip i agree but more effective - and this goes across all events not just the vault. Of course if i drove the knee too little that was also mentioned but the main thing for him and for me is to get the hip driving.

I will argue that you even drive your lead knee FURTHER once you leave the ground - PAST horizontal. That's called the "follow-thru", and is based on a common athletic principle (javelin, golf, baseball, you name it) that if you abruptly stop the action at the point of release, then your release (i.e. jump) will be incomplete. In other words, to guarantee that the "stopping action" doesn't interfere with the "release action", you need to continue the release action AFTER the release.

BodyPlanes.jpg (18.47 KiB) Viewed 8557 times

I guess there needs to be some clarification here - when i say horizontal i should say perpendicular to the vertical alignment of the body or in reference to the image above the transverse plane. So if we are upright both hip and knee would be aligned parallel to the ground AND perpendicular to the body. The need to specify this is because once we leave the ground the horizon shifts for the vaulter. After leaving the ground down and up are not the true down and up. It still feels like we are vertical but by looking at pictures and videos we know this is not the case.

To refer to your comment on follow through,this would be the follow through of the hip taking us further into into the C position after takeoff has been completed and NOT the knee driving up past this transverse plane. Of course Agapit would say that even this hip follow through is not part of the 6.40 model as it would fall under the passive phase definition. Once the foot has left the ground any chance of actively driving the hip into such a follow through has ceased. Once the foot leaves the ground the very next thing to do is pull and invert, with as short an amount of time between the takeoff and the pull/inversion which occur simultaneously.

I expect some debate here, so I'll pause now.

Kirk

let the debate continue, good work

PS i guess what i've said above means that i don't agree with the swing. Well i don't. In fact i don't even agree with a pull. I agree with a counterbalancing inversion and that's about it. If it is a true counterbalance to the pole bending then nothing else needs to be done except ensure stability in the system to prevent loss of energy through slackness, through a lack of stability. Stay ahead of the pole's recoil and you are home and hosed as they say.

[volteur]

PP i am with you totally regarding the thigh stopping at the tranverse/horizontal plane. That energy transfer from the momentum of the leg into the momentum of the body is vital in jumping events. To also agree with you and Golfdane the faster the limb is stopped the more energy is transferred. If it is not stopped prior to leaving the ground then that potential energy is lost.

[KirkB]

this center of gravity, center of mass, physical center, navel chakra or whatever is a very real and feelable thing. To be precise it exists right at the front of the spine about an inch below the navel. ...

I know exactly where the CoM is - no pics necessary. It depends on posture tho. It's interesting that the CoM goes UNDER the bar as a Fosbury Flopper or Brill Bender goes OVER the bar. Ditto with a Huffman Roller or a Jackknifer.

I prefer referring to the "lead knee drive" rather than "hip drive" because it's more actionable. ...

this is where we differ greatly because my coach always referred to driving the hip rather than the knee. ...

Well, if you want your athletes to follow your advice, you need to give them advice that they can follow. If my coach told me to drive my hips to Wichita, I wouldn't know what that meant either!

I've never been to Kansas, but if he told me to drive the POLE to Wichita, I'd hit the box HARD!

OK, you you say potayto and I say potawto. The hip bone's connected to the leg bone ... so I don't get your point. But do you get mine?

I will argue that you even drive your lead knee FURTHER once you leave the ground - PAST horizontal. That's called the "follow-thru", and is based on a common athletic principle (javelin, golf, baseball, you name it) that if you abruptly stop the action at the point of release, then your release (i.e. jump) will be incomplete. In other words, to guarantee that the "stopping action" doesn't interfere with the "release action", you need to continue the release action AFTER the release.

.... To refer to your comment on follow through, this would be the follow through of the hip taking us further into into the C position after takeoff has been completed and NOT the knee driving up past this transverse plane. Of course Agapit would say that even this hip follow through is not part of the 6.40 model as it would fall under the passive phase definition. Once the foot has left the ground any chance of actively driving the hip into such a follow through has ceased. Once the foot leaves the ground the very next thing to do is pull and invert, with as short an amount of time between the takeoff and the pull/inversion which occur simultaneously.

No, we're not talking about the same thing here. You're getting WAY ahead of my point.

I'm only talking about the follow-thru of the lead knee, PAST the point of lift-off. You have to focus on driving it PAST horiz!

Look at this vid of "6.11 Bubka" and you'll see that his lead leg is horiz to the ground immediately after takeoff. If Bubka didn't focus on driving it PAST horiz, he would not have gotten it to horiz! He FOLLOWS THRU after takeoff!

You don't acknowledge this point, which is very important. Instead, you proceed to discuss the next vault part, which is stretching into the C.

Without fast-forwarding to the C, think about whether or not the basic principle of follow-thru - that works in all the other sports that I mentioned - works in the lead knee drive. If you don't think the same principle applies, tell me why - WITHOUT talking about the NEXT vault part.

Until we agree (or agree to disagree) about the TAKEOFF (including the follow-thru of the lead knee to at least horiz immediately AFTER takeoff - which is still part of the TAKEOFF), I'm going to pause again.

I love a good debate, as long as we stay on-topic.

Also, I'm still waiting for PP's catapult to come crashing back to earth ... or is it lost in space forever?

Kirk

[volteur]

I know exactly where the CoM is - no pics necessary. It depends on posture tho. It's interesting that the CoM goes UNDER the bar as a Fosbury Flopper or Brill Bender goes OVER the bar. Ditto with a Huffman Roller or a Jackknifer.

i know you do but so do i and i thought i would respond to you similar to your response to me. Even stevens.

I've never been to Kansas, but if he told me to drive the POLE to Wichita, I'd hit the box HARD!

OK, you you say potayto and I say potawto. The hip bone's connected to the leg bone ... so I don't get your point. But do you get mine?

of course. My points further clarification will follow but on the notion of hitting it hard i don't agree that is the correct intention. Hit it hard with with softness would be more in line with my intention. Do you also advocate using a stiff lower arm to be able to hit it hard?

No, we're not talking about the same thing here. You're getting WAY ahead of my point.

ok fair enough. So are we just talking about all of the vault up to when the takeoff foot leaves the ground?

I'm only talking about the follow-thru of the lead knee, PAST the point of lift-off. You have to focus on driving it PAST horiz!

so you are talking about what happens after we leave the ground? So does the knee goes above the body's horizontal plane then or not? Does the knee travel above the line the hip is on or not?

Look at this vid of "6.11 Bubka" and you'll see that his lead leg is horiz to the ground immediately after takeoff. If Bubka didn't focus on driving it PAST horiz, he would not have gotten it to horiz! He FOLLOWS THRU after takeoff!

What exactly is this follow through you are talking about. It doesn't occur in this Bubka 3 second vid nor any other picture of Bubka. In ALL cases his lead knee STOPS once he has left the ground (later it continues but only when the inversion is initiated). During takeoff the hip and knee lock (paraphrasing PP) into a relationship and this relationship does not change after the ground has been left (although it does later).

You don't acknowledge this point, which is very important. Instead, you proceed to discuss the next vault part, which is stretching into the C.

well the C is created whilst still on the ground and it doesn't increase once Bubka, as the example, has left the ground.

Without fast-forwarding to the C, think about whether or not the basic principle of follow-thru - that works in all the other sports that I mentioned - works in the lead knee drive. If you don't think the same principle applies, tell me why - WITHOUT talking about the NEXT vault part.

the follow through simply doesn't exist in the vault, what comes directly after takeoff is the air phase. This involves immediately entering the inversion phase prior to the rest of the vault but i'm not supposed to talk about that. The follow through exists in the throws but not in the vault. How i do agree with you is that there needs to be the intention to move past the point of takeoff otherwise the vaulter would be intending to stop at takeoff, but that would be just silly and doesn't need going into. What happens to the lead knee is that it is driven into POSITION where is abruptly STOPS. This stopping allows the momentum of the leg to be transferred into the rest of the body allowing for more energy in the jump.

Until we agree (or agree to disagree) about the TAKEOFF (including the follow-thru of the lead knee to at least horiz immediately AFTER takeoff - which is still part of the TAKEOFF), I'm going to pause again.

at least horizontal? or past? and i'm still not sure if you are aware that this horizontal is defined by the direction the hip is pointing in or not. This does change after leaving the ground, however, as i said above, the planar relationship created between the hip and the knee during takeoff is maintained. Maybe we need to look at more Bubka jumps to see this is a completely factual statement.

Just one thing more - no energy, ABSOLUTELY no more energy can be added to the vault after the takeoff foot leaves the ground. All that can be done after leaving the ground is to minimise any loss of energy through ineffeciency

are we still on track Kirk?
V

The 6.11 jump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FILObFtpdVU

a freaky jump - talk about an unmoved center Tim McM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYaBPDTr ... re=related

[KirkB]

... on the notion of hitting it hard i don't agree that is the correct intention. Hit it hard with with softness would be more in line with my intention. Do you also advocate using a stiff lower arm to be able to hit it hard?

"drive the pole to Wichita" and "hit it hard" are just ideas that you either think on your own or that your coach says to you in an emphatic voice while you're standing at the end of the runway - mentally preparing for your next jump. Of course I don't advocate using a stiff lower arm! Is that really what you think I meant? I'm just a little disappointed that we're not connecting very well, after so much discussion these past few months.

To try to explain ... which I don't really think I should need to ... "hitting it hard" is just another way of saying "be aggressive in the plant/takeoff phase". There is no implication on saying which arm or leg I will use to "hit it hard". I could just as easily say "be aggressive" and it would mean exactly the same thing.

In reality, I didn't often think WORDS to myself. Instead, I thought PICTURES. I had the mental picture of being aggressive on takeoff, and that's all I needed. Once I got that image in my brain, it transfered to my body at the appropriate time during the vault. In addition to pictures, I thought in terms of GRUNTS, or TAPS (like a drum-beat). These mental sound-effects simply added a rhythm or timing to my mental images, so that I not only got the sequence of images correct in my head, but I also got the timing of how quickly one vault part should follow the other. Harmoniously, of course!

"Hit it hard with softness"? Now there's an oxy-moron if I've ever heard one! The box was my ENEMY! I was out to ATTACK it! What, I want to be GENTLE with it? No way! HIT IT HARD!!!

I hope you're enjoying the 5th DIMENSION aspects of what I'm saying here, volteur.

No, we're not talking about the same thing here. You're getting WAY ahead of my point.

ok fair enough. So are we just talking about all of the vault up to when the takeoff foot leaves the ground?

I'm only talking about the follow-thru of the lead knee, PAST the point of lift-off. You have to focus on driving it PAST horiz!

so you are talking about what happens after we leave the ground? So does the knee goes above the body's horizontal plane then or not? Does the knee travel above the line the hip is on or not?

Look at this vid of "6.11 Bubka" and you'll see that his lead leg is horiz to the ground immediately after takeoff. If Bubka didn't focus on driving it PAST horiz, he would not have gotten it to horiz! He FOLLOWS THRU after takeoff!

What exactly is this follow through you are talking about. It doesn't occur in this Bubka 3 second vid nor any other picture of Bubka. In ALL cases his lead knee STOPS once he has left the ground (later it continues but only when the inversion is initiated). During takeoff the hip and knee lock (paraphrasing PP) into a relationship and this relationship does not change after the ground has been left (although it does later).

I know it's hard for you to comprehend how the follow-thru (which happens AFTER takeoff) can help improve the takeoff. I'm sure you're not alone. But if you make a concious effort to SEPARATE the vault parts, and think ONLY about the follow-thru (and not what happens immediately after takeoff), then perhaps you'll understand what I'm trying to say.

Don't worry - we have to put all these vault parts back together to make the vault HARMONIOUS. But we have to "divide and conquer" by talking about one thing at a time - first. Otherwise, you muddle too many things together, and we can't make any sense of any of it.

At least that's the way my analytical brain works. I'm a left brain thinker, and I know that you're a right brain thinker. Pole vaulters can be either or. No problem there. It's just that the left side of my brain is obviously having difficulties communicating with the right side of your brain.

The follow-thru is necessary to leave the ground with maximum force. I know this sounds paradoxical, but if you don't follow-thru AFTER takeoff, then your takeoff won't be as good. I can't explain it any better than to reference the same phenomenon in other sports, as I've already done.

I will admit that you can't SEE it in the 6.11 Bubka vid, but can't you FEEL it? It's there! ... [pause] ... OK, perhaps I'm getting into 5th dimension stuff again. How about a Star Wars analogy? FEEL the FORCE!!! May the FORCE be with you!!! FOLLOW-THRU!!! There ... did you hear THAT? Can you FEEL it now?

I'm sure that there's a very good principle, based on the Laws of Physics, that explains this phenomenon. I'm just at a loss for words that will explain it ... but it's there! It's very real ... I FELT it!

Maybe just think of a long jumper. The takeoff is almost exactly the same, except for the pole - which doesn't hit until AFTER takeoff. Do long jumpers not follow-thru after they leave the ground?

You don't acknowledge this point, which is very important. Instead, you proceed to discuss the next vault part, which is stretching into the C.

well the C is created whilst still on the ground and it doesn't increase once Bubka, as the example, has left the ground.

Whoa! Whoa! That would be very poor posture! If you're in the C before you leave the ground, you're WAY under!

Without fast-forwarding to the C, think about whether or not the basic principle of follow-thru - that works in all the other sports that I mentioned - works in the lead knee drive. If you don't think the same principle applies, tell me why - WITHOUT talking about the NEXT vault part.

the follow through simply doesn't exist in the vault, what comes directly after takeoff is the air phase. ... The follow through exists in the throws but not in the vault. How[ever] [sic] i do agree with you is [sic] that there needs to be the intention to move past the point of takeoff otherwise the vaulter would be intending to stop at takeoff, but that would be just silly and doesn't need going into.

No, that's NOT silly! That's exactly what I mean! IMPORTANT! Not SILLY! Finally, you agree with me!

What happens to the lead knee is that it is driven into POSITION where is abruptly STOPS. This stopping allows the momentum of the leg to be transferred into the rest of the body allowing for more energy in the jump.

OK, this is where we begin to disagree again. You say "abruptly STOPS" as if it's the vaulter's INTENT. If you agree on the INTENT to follow-thru (I hope), then how can the vaulter INTEND to do two contradictory things at once? There's the rub! That's why talking about follow-thru is NOT silly!

Until we agree (or agree to disagree) about the TAKEOFF (including the follow-thru of the lead knee to at least horiz immediately AFTER takeoff - which is still part of the TAKEOFF), I'm going to pause again.

at least horizontal? or past?

Again, I'm going to talk in 5th dimension terms, so please bear with me ...

To get to horiz, I think the vaulter's intent needs to be to think in terms of PAST horiz. By aiming higher than just horiz, he'll get to horiz. Clear as mud?

... and i'm still not sure if you are aware that this horizontal is defined by the direction the hip is pointing in or not.

I'm aware. That discussion can come later. Don't muddy the waters with it just yet.

Just one thing more - no energy, ABSOLUTELY no more energy can be added to the vault after the takeoff foot leaves the ground. All that can be done after leaving the ground is to minimise any loss of energy through ineffeciency

I agree with your INTENT in making this statement. You mean "from the takeoff". You mean that the FOLLOW-THRU doesn't add energy AFTER the foot leaves the ground. That's right. But as I know you know, there's lots of ways to add more energy to the vault after that.

Paradoxically (as I already mentioned above - but just in case you still don't get it), the follow-thru adds energy during the TAKEOFF!

Weird, but true! How can a vault part AFTER takeoff improve the takeoff? That's the mystery of the follow-thru, and my belief, based on personal experience and first-party observation and experience of other sports, is that it's a scientific fact that SOMEHOW follows the laws of physics.

Now if you ask me for proof, that's where I come up short. I tried to google it, and found lots of links that stress the IMPORTANCE of follow-thru in other sports (golf, bowling, baseball, pool, tennis ...) but none explain WHY.

... This involves immediately entering the inversion phase prior to the rest of the vault but i'm not supposed to talk about that. ...

That's right - you're not! We still need to agree on the takeoff and its follow-thru! [sigh]

The 6.11 Bubka jump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FILObFtpdVU

are we still on track Kirk?

STILL on track? We never WERE!!!

Kirk

[powerplant42]

It's just that the left side of my brain is obviously having difficulties communicating with the right side of your brain.

I'll do my best at playing corpus callosum.

Follow through (in any sport) is not really physically important to what the 'ball' does after contact... unless the player does something different in preparation for 'strike'! For example, if you are playing tennis, and a ball is hit toward you... you could wind up hard, and then really let it go as you try to hit it solidly. You are not likely to be able stop the racquet as the ball is hit without decelerating as you prepare to strike. In other words, it is a law of the human body, NOT a law of physics.

Apply that same idea to the run, take-off, and KB's 'follow through'. The wind up is the run, the stroke is the take-off, and the follow through is 'follow through'.

[volteur]

Kirk, as you say we really are on different wavelengths here and i have to say i see yours but you don't see mine, but you seem to be saying the exact same thing about me, haha!

So lets go back a little and clarify a few things. To do this i'll ask you some questions.

The takeoff ends where?

What is the end position of the takeoff?

Can you show me a Bubka Video where his knee continues into this follow though? You could reference that second video i posted or any other.

Can you show me where Sotomayor continues his knee past this stopping point? Or Lewis or Beamon or Powell? Or Edwards?

Finally for now a more personal one - in your belief what type of thinking do right and left brain thinkers do? Which is intuitive and which is rational?

[volteur]

It's just that the left side of my brain is obviously having difficulties communicating with the right side of your brain.

I'll do my best at playing corpus callosum.

Follow through (in any sport) is not really physically important to what the 'ball' does after contact... unless the player does something different in preparation for 'strike'! For example, if you are playing tennis, and a ball is hit toward you... you could wind up hard, and then really let it go as you try to hit it solidly. You are not likely to be able stop the racquet as the ball is hit without decelerating as you prepare to strike. In other words, it is a law of the human body, NOT a law of physics.

Apply that same idea to the run, take-off, and KB's 'follow through'. The wind up is the run, the stroke is the take-off, and the follow through is 'follow through'.

I agree PP, the follow through is a result and it's not part of the actionable intent. The intent is to hit through the ball or to takeoff into the pole. Once this is done in tennis the point is to re-prepare for the next shot ASAP. The next shot in the vault is the inversion and any delay in preparing for that is an Agapit passive phase. To be Devil's advocate here and sorry Kirk but your raising of the rear leg into the split 'after' takeoff is such a passive phase. In tennis this would be like preparing to do a drive volley and being late to hit the ball when all you needed was a block volley to get the ball back into play.

[KirkB]

The takeoff ends where?

What is the end position of the takeoff?

Can you show me a Bubka Video where his knee continues into this follow though?

As I've tried to say, the ACTUAL takeoff ends at approx horiz, but the vaulter's INTENT needs to be to FOLLOW-THRU further than horiz. Otherwise, he won't get to horiz. He needs to OVER-EMPHASIZE his takeoff by following thru. This INTENT is independent of the C, so don't go there (yet).

... in your belief what type of thinking do right and left brain thinkers do? Which is intuitive and which is rational?

This is not a question of "belief". I use commonly known definitions, backed by science. Here's an example: http://www.funderstanding.com/right_left_brain.cfm If by chance that reference is wrong, let me know. It's a waste of time to discuss things that are common knowledge.

... if you are playing tennis, and a ball is hit toward you... you could wind up hard, and then really let it go as you try to hit it solidly. You are not likely to be able stop the racquet as the ball is hit without decelerating as you prepare to strike. ...

... the follow through is a result and it's not part of the actionable intent. The intent is to hit through the ball or to takeoff into the pole. Once this is done in tennis the point is to re-prepare for the next shot ASAP.

No, in tennis, golf, pitching (baseball), javelin, discus, shot, and many other sports, the intent of the athlete is to follow thru. This gives him a better throw or hit. You can't ignore this fact. And just as in your tennis example, if your intent is to follow-thru on your serve, and you're "not likely to be able to stop the racquet as the ball is hit", the same goes for the PV takeoff. If you jump VIGOROUSLY enough, you're going to COMPLETE your takeoff. If you don't jump VIGOROUSLY, you might not fully extend your trail leg, and your lead knee might not reach horiz.

In tennis this would be like preparing to do a drive volley and being late to hit the ball when all you needed was a block volley to get the ball back into play.

A block volley is a bad example. We're not talking about the tennis "block volley" shot, which has no follow-thru. We're talking about the serve (for example), which has follow-thru. You're throwing out red herrings!

But if you're serious about the block volley shot, then tell me how much power that shot will have? More power than your serve, or less? I don't think I need to spell out the comparable result in PV.

The next shot in the vault is the inversion and any delay in preparing for that is an Agapit passive phase. To be Devil's advocate here and sorry Kirk but your raising of the rear leg into the split 'after' takeoff is such a passive phase.

Once again, you're thinking too far ahead, volteur. I'm still only talking about the TAKEOFF! Try to put your right brain thinking on pause for a second, and contemplate this.

Better yet, buy BTB2, and find out what Alan Launder says about follow-thru. I don't have the patience to look it up right now (it's been a long day, and you still "don't get it"), but I remember when I read the book a few months ago that he clearly talked about the importance of "completing the takeoff by stretching". This stretch is a stretch of the lead knee forwards, and a stretch of the trail leg "off the ground". (I won't say backwards, as I don't want to suggest that he said to ACTIVELY raise of the trail leg to the C.)

And we're not even discussing active/passive phases yet. That discussion will come on the BB thread in due course, but after you understand the TAKEOFF here better. This is on the principle that you need to fix the root cause of a technical error before you proceed further downstream from it.

I did not intend to raise the issue of takeoff follow-thru on the BB thread, because I thought it was such an obvious thing to do (for left-brainers, at least).

Kirk

[volteur]

ok well for starters my brain does work better from the left or rational side yet you think i am predominately a right brain thinker. Having said that my right side brain has been developing and deliberately so since my mid 20s some 10 years ago. In the quest for balance i pursue this.

I threw shot, discus and javelin for many years and i can tell you that the follow through is only part of the equation and is actually the PASSIVE RESULT of a good delivery. Far more important is actually learning how to throw/deliver the implements.

Now please slow down a little and answer my first two questions properly as a left brainer like you should

When does the takeoff finish? Not in terms of the lead knee specifically. Maybe you could define it in terms of the takeoff foot. Is it AS the toe leaves the ground or is it later than that in your opinion? PLease describe the final body position at the exact END of the takeoff.

And still waiting for a Bubka video which shows a follow through of the lead knee. Show me one where he doesn't STOP the lead knee as he leaves the ground. Show me one which does not stop at EXACTLY the SAME time as his left toe leaves the ground.

cheers

[KirkB]

... my brain does work better from the left or rational side yet you think i am predominately a right brain thinker. ...

I pegged you as a right brainer becuz (looking at the left brain list) you're so illogical, irrational, unanalytical, unobjective, and you can't seem to break the vault into its parts. Looking at the right brain list, you have random thoughts that are irrelevant to the topic, and you seem to want to look at the whole vault at once - in a single post, no less. I won't even comment on the other right side attributes, as that would only set you off on yet another tangent.

I threw shot, discus and javelin for many years and i can tell you that the follow through is only part of the equation and is actually the PASSIVE RESULT of a good delivery. Far more important is actually learning how to throw/deliver the implements.

So you think that passive actions are good in all events but PV, but bad in PV? Why are we so special?

If it helps you to understand this concept, I will tell you that the follow-thru of the PV takeoff is ALSO only part of the equation. But why do I have to get into that detail with you? This is the Advanced Technique forum.

How far would you throw the shot, discus, and javelin if you didn't follow-thru?

When does the takeoff finish? Not in terms of the lead knee specifically. Maybe you could define it in terms of the takeoff foot. Is it AS the toe leaves the ground or is it later than that in your opinion? PLease describe the final body position at the exact END of the takeoff.

You don't seem to get that you can separate the vault into parts for analysis, then put them back together into one harmonious sequence. I will answer this question indirectly in my next post.

And still waiting for a Bubka video which shows a follow through of the lead knee. Show me one where he doesn't STOP the lead knee as he leaves the ground. Show me one which does not stop at EXACTLY the SAME time as his left toe leaves the ground.

The reference vid is the 6.11 Bubka vid. He gets to horiz because his intent is to follow-thru PAST horiz. Of course you can't see his intent on the vid, but it's there. He does NOT intentionally stop his lead knee drive. That would be a passive action, which would not add energy to the system. The lead knee is stopped not by Bubka, but by his body's interaction with the pole after it hits the box.

Kirk