Trail Leg- Tuck or Petrov?

[Tim McMichael]

Even in that video... as great of a jump that is... Walker has to work as hard as he can to catch up to the pole when it begins unbending... because he is in a tucked ball when the pole begins unbending...

I have completed literally thousands of jumps from a tucked position and the description of working hard to catch the pole is just not accurate. On the best vaults, it feels like someone magically handed you a much longer pole at the top of the jump. The hips fly up the pole as the crossbar rushes toward you, and it would be more accurate to say that there is nothing you could possibly do to stop from catching up to the pole. All of the work done is simply to help out what is already happening. And even then, the most a vaulter can hope to do with working at the top is to add about four inches above what would happen if he simply lined up with the pole and let go.

It doesn't matter what technique a vaulter uses. Anytime it feels like she has to force something to happen the vault is already ruined.

[BethelPV]

Tim,
How many vaults did it feel like you could just not catch up to the pole? I used to be an extremely bad tuck and shoot vaulter, who is transitioning to Petrov Model jumping. I remember when I would tuck, that there were times when it just felt like i could not even invert, like i would get stuck and couldn't extend. Just wondering if you ever felt that way. The more ive started actually swinging around the pole, the less that seems to happen to me! Just curious!

Zach

[Tim McMichael]

Tim,
How many vaults did it feel like you could just not catch up to the pole? I used to be an extremely bad tuck and shoot vaulter, who is transitioning to Petrov Model jumping. I remember when I would tuck, that there were times when it just felt like i could not even invert, like i would get stuck and couldn't extend. Just wondering if you ever felt that way. The more ive started actually swinging around the pole, the less that seems to happen to me! Just curious!

Zach

Not often, but sometimes. This was always because of a bad takeoff that limited my ability to swing. The tuck had to be completed off of a very fast swing just as the pole began to unbend. If it happened after that, it was impossible to go up the pole. Timing was everything. In my opinion Paul Burgess has the best of all possible worlds. He combines a free takeoff with all of the advantages that I feel come from tucking. I have heard that his coach also worked with Rodion Gatulin who also combined a free takeoff with a tuck. The two are not mutually exclusive of one another.

Remember, my jump and my understanding of the vault are colored by my particular physical limitations. It may not be the best way to vault high, but I am certain that it is the ONLY way I could vault at all. If you cannot run fast, and you cannot jump off of the ground, and you are not tall, what do you have left? The answer to that question determines almost everything I know about the vault that differs from what I have learned from others. I have been forced to consider alternatives because, as Altius has so often reminded me, "What is technically desirable must also be athletically possible." The only thing I could do well was to swing very long and very fast, and because this took so long to happen, I was forced to tuck to catch up to the pole. From this perspective I can promise you that a tuck done in the right way at the right time does not cost much if any penetration and actually helps the hips go up the pole instead of inhibiting them. But this has to come off of a really good run and plant, and unless you are forced to take a low angle, you don't have to do it.

I bet when you switched to Petrov your hips started going up the pole with ease and you left the days of what old Mr. Dial used to call "getting stuck in the bucket" behind. The awesome thing about the Petrov model is that it teaches you how to carry the pole, run, plant, swing, and finish the vault all at the same time. You have to learn to carry the pole and plant properly, and when that happens the swing through to inversion becomes possible, and even easy to do. This is often a revelation to athletes who have gone through the difficulties you describe for years, and it is one of the joys of teaching the proper run and takeoff to see this happen.

[Soar Like an Eagle]

If a coach interprets, Beginner to Bubka technique properly, the technical approach is great, but coaches need to really understand the concept of the run, plant, and take off before swinging on the pole.

If they read the book, pay attention, and apply it, they will understand those principles.

I agree Beginner to Bubka is a great book and should be read everyone, but the principles must be correctly applied when coaching. Sometimes reading and applying the applications can be challenging. Coaches should also purchase the DVDs from Beginner to Bubka which would be very beneficial for their athletes to see and visualize. Rick Bagget, Dave Nielson, and Jan Johnson also have videos and articles to research which are great.

[superpipe]

Another difficulty is the idea that the tuck robs the swing of energy. This is simply not true. The law of conservation of angular momentum dictates that a rotating object does not lose energy when its radius is shortened. It merely gains speed as it swings around its axis. The swing reaches maximum speed at the instant a straight line can be drawn from the top hand through to the foot of the trail leg. At this point, the body is as long as it can possibly be and has attained all the speed of rotation it is going to. After this, nothing can be gained by attempting to keep a rigid body and a straight leg. Shortening the radius of the swing by pulling the trail leg in after this point does not lose energy. The radius of the swing is shortened, and the velocity of the rotation is increased, but the energy remains unchanged, except for what is lost to gravity and friction.

You're missing the most important part, the transfer of energy. You're right that you don't change your own angular energy, but the moment you tuck, you stop transferring energy to the pole.

[powerplant42]

Right, you're just waiting for the energy to come back around, instead of using the time you have to create even more.

[Tim McMichael]

Another difficulty is the idea that the tuck robs the swing of energy. This is simply not true. The law of conservation of angular momentum dictates that a rotating object does not lose energy when its radius is shortened. It merely gains speed as it swings around its axis. The swing reaches maximum speed at the instant a straight line can be drawn from the top hand through to the foot of the trail leg. At this point, the body is as long as it can possibly be and has attained all the speed of rotation it is going to. After this, nothing can be gained by attempting to keep a rigid body and a straight leg. Shortening the radius of the swing by pulling the trail leg in after this point does not lose energy. The radius of the swing is shortened, and the velocity of the rotation is increased, but the energy remains unchanged, except for what is lost to gravity and friction.

You're missing the most important part, the transfer of energy. You're right that you don't change your own angular energy, but the moment you tuck, you stop transferring energy to the pole.

As long as the athlete is hanging onto the pole, any energy created in the swing is going to be transferred to the pole. With a tuck it's just going to happen sooner. The only way speeding up the rotation of the swing can stop energy being transferred to the pole is if it is done before the swing has attained its highest velocity.

[Tim McMichael]

Right, you're just waiting for the energy to come back around, instead of using the time you have to create even more.

The idea that tucking involves waiting is a function of only having experience with vaults that are flawed to begin with, where a tuck is used to salvage something that is going wrong. A tuck off of the right takeoff and swing involves no passivity. Even a fraction of a second of delay will ruin any jump.

[powerplant42]

But why not use all the time that you have during the vault to create as much energy as possible? Using the energy created by the swing sooner by tucking results in a small wasted opportunity to ADD energy.

[Tim McMichael]

But why not use all the time that you have during the vault to create as much energy as possible? Using the energy created by the swing sooner by tucking results in a small wasted opportunity to ADD energy.

The energy created by the swing is a finite value. Once it is going as fast as it can, that is all there is. Causing the swing to finish later in the jump by keeping it long after it has all the velocity it is going to get does not provide an opportunity to add more energy, it simply takes that energy and spreads it out over a longer period of time.

Let's say I compete against an identical twin and we each have perfect takeoffs and our swings have the same velocity. I tuck when my swing has peak energy and he stays long. My swing will finish before his does, but the total amount of energy added to our vaults will be the same no matter how different our timing may be.

[powerplant42]

Staying relatively long lets the vaulter flow into shifting the hips upward.

[Tim McMichael]

Staying relatively long lets the vaulter flow into shifting the hips upward.

This is a point that I might be willing to grant, but here is where we need to debate. Staying long may make the rest of the vault easier, but it does not add energy to the system. This is why an athlete who tucks at the right time can still jump very high. If the tuck is necessitated by a poor takeoff, it is a symptom of an error. If it is executed of of a proper takeoff, it is a style difference and not much more. The reason the tuck is mistaken as a move that costs energy is because it almost always happens after a takeoff that is depleted of energy to begin with. Therefore, what we see are a lot of tucks followed by missed bars. But we also see a few tucks followed by huge clearances, and they are always by the same athletes.

From a teaching perspective, too often the tuck is taught in place of teaching a vaulter proper run and plant mechanics. Tucking lets them get some kind of jump going when, if they had stayed long, a forced bail out is all they could hope for. This will limit them forever.