pushing back out during the swing?

[PVDaddy]

As I have previously stated in Agenda 21, I believe the correct time to perform the bottom hand pull (Which is pulling action through the shoulder and lats and most of that pull should occur through the top hand (The Poles fulcrum) at the exact moment the vaulter breaks at the hips. It should occur during the UPSWING not the downswing! I After the deep penetration of the body through the arms and after the shoulder girdles have been fully stretched and come to a stop (Arrested) the Vaulter/Pole system gets fully loaded (The body is flexible just like the pole and bends just like it, in the same direction and shape. The term pole loading must be discarded, it fails to describe the fact that the Vaulter is also loaded as denoted by the inverse-C position) The whip will begin automatically (Stretch reflex).
I believe the forward extension of the bottom hand (In line with the pole (not adjacent to it) and in the same direction it wants to move) fully complies with Petrov's philosophy of always keep the pole moving. This forward extension of the bottom arm Bubka employs during his downswing, maintains the pressure and stretch on the full body coil (From the top hand through the spine to the swing leg toe). This place the center of gravity lower on the vaulters body, because, it pushes him as far away from the pole as possible and creates a long, deep, powerful, pendulum swing just like a gymnast does on a high bar.

Pole vault – the state of the art
By Vitaly Petrov

: It is worth
mentioning here that the arrest of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the
drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through
active unbending of the left arm

How to perform a Tap Swing on a high bar (As Taken from a gymnastic site)

An aggressive effective tap swing is key to a dynamic high bar routine.
The gymnast should be hollow in the rear phase of the swing. Head in, hollow chest and pushing away from the bar on the downward swing.
As the gymnast passes between the uprights they should open to prepare for the tap. (Most gymnasts open the swing early causing the tap to go forward and not upward)
As the gymnast begins the upwards phase of the forward swing they should tap aggressively towards the ceiling.
As the upwards swing rises the gymnast should pull the bar back and push away to get their center of gravity as far away from the bar as possible for the downward swing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98

[altius]

Here we go again - irrelevant information piled upon more irrelevant information from someone who doesn't event know what long swings are! You clearly never bother to read the wisdom in other posts - but then I have stopped reading your posts because it is simply ignorance building on ignorance. Sorry old son why don't you stop this and, as I repeatedly suggest, go back to learning something about coaching this event by actually doing it. Post film of your kids as they improve - ask for advice when they don't - and you will learn even faster.

[altius]

"So should we trust Altius "Epiphany" while on a ski trip with Agapit or Petrov's IAAF article and drills as to whether the bottom arm sholud be extended forward through the downswing?" What a lovely snide comment!

Again it would be really useful if you were to read what I wrote about the swing into inversion in BTB2 - Chapter 27, 20 pages. There you will find me referring to the article that Petrov wrote and quoting from it. Since I have been to Formia on three occasions with athletes and have had Petrov in OZ three times -once for three weeks in Adelaide, I think it would be fair to say that I do understand Petrovs approach to this phase of the vault -indeed I spelled it out. I also had two hours with Bubka in Munich in 199o -with an interpreter where Igto confirmation that he was always trying to pre jump. However our understanding of this event is always a work in progress so when I spent two weeks with Roman it was inevitable that one of his pet enthusiasms would come up -after all there is only so much vodka you can drink in one night.

What brought things together for me was the fact that Roman discussed many conversations that he had with Bubka which indicated that the latter was operating intuitively during that phase of the vault - a point I stressed in BTB1 - and that he actually began to agree with Roman that this - a pull - was in fact what actually happened but that he never thought about anything after take off - it was all -well you know what. Since this was not what my eyes were telling me - and not what Petrov talked about -I was doubtful until I went back to the fundamental notion that I had introduced - that vaulting on a flexible pole was like vaulting on an infinite series of straight poles (A concept that I do not believe anyone had previously annunciated) - altho I am sure Kirk will correct me. Once I put that together with the fact that Petrov made it clear that he was greatly influenced by stiff pole vaulters - most notably Warmerdam - it began to dawn on me (I am a bit slow) that if that was the case then flexible vaulters should be doing much the same as stiff polers. The latter were forced to accentuate the importance of the whip swing -a point I make much of in BTB2 - and therefore would pull to speed up that swing -there was certainly no point in them pushing the pole away in that phase.

That was my analysis and that was my epiphany. However it makes not the slightest difference to what I tell my athletes - as always it is swing on the pole as if you were on the high bar - and they all become very good at the letter exercise. The only addition I have made is to have athletes swing into inversion on a rope and instantly try to get their feet as high up the rope as possible - to do that they must pull - and time the pull correctly. BUT NOTE I do not give them any cues TO HELP THEM -because they won't help! Information will get in the way of performance.

As ADTF Academy so wisely said, too many coaches are coaching with their mouths instead of allowing athletes to learn what they need to know. As one of my heroes Bukelski once said, "Learning can only be done by the learner, not by some kind of transmission process from the teacher.

Sadly I don't expect this to be accepted as the wisdom of an expert in the field - I am sure all and sundry will attempt to deconstruct it and put their own take on it even if they don't understand what I have said or haven't even read it carefully. Unfortunately that seems to be where we are at the moment in this forum.

[KirkB]

... the fundamental notion that I had introduced - that vaulting on a flexible pole was like vaulting on an infinite series of straight poles (A concept that I do not believe anyone had previously annunciated) - altho I am sure Kirk will correct me.

I think you ARE getting paranoid, Altius. I wasn't thinking this at all. In fact, here's what I posted just 2 days ago in another thread:

As you have also read from Altius, a bent pole vault is really just a series of straight pole vaults - one after the other all in the same jump!

We seem to agree with each other even more than you realize! Maybe it's that darn all-timers again.

For the record, I switched from steel to fiber at age 15, and I got completely lost in my technique - thinking that the objective of fiberglass pole vaulting was to bend the pole as much as possible. I actually held onto that belief well into my college career - to my detriment. I'm sure if you were teaching me - and if you had your epiphany a few decades earlier - I could have jumped quite a bit higher in HS.

Once I put that together with the fact that Petrov made it clear that he was greatly influenced by stiff pole vaulters - most notably Warmerdam - it began to dawn on me ... that if that was the case then flexible vaulters should be doing much the same as stiff polers. The latter were forced to accentuate the importance of the whip swing -a point I make much of in BTB2 - and therefore would pull to speed up that swing -there was certainly no point in them pushing the pole away in that phase.

That was my analysis and that was my epiphany.

Yup. No point in pushing. Pushing doesn't help a steel pole vaulter, so why the heck should it help a fiberglass pole vaulter?

I learned this the hard way - after trying to bend the heck out of my pole for almost 3 years. What a waste of time and effort! What a waste of a HS PV career!

Altius, when you say "pull", you mean a full-body pull - with not only the arms, but also with the torso and legs, right? I'm referring to once you're in the stretched C position, you immediately pull with your entire body to turn your C into an I and then an L, right? I've always emphasized the leg whip, and Agapit has always (I think) emphasized the lat arm "pull", but it's both at once, right?

The only addition I have made is to have athletes swing into inversion on a rope and instantly try to get their feet as high up the rope as possible - to do that they must pull - and time the pull correctly.

One minor difference when I did this drill was for my coach to hold the rope at an angle, so that when you jumped up and grabbed on, it would help you to swing up a little earlier. Otherwise, there's too much of a "lull" while the rope swings to an angled position. Our rope hung from a 20 foot ceiling, so it was rather long. A shorter rope (perhaps hanging from a 10 foot ceiling) would have lessened this "lull". So if you have a choice, use a shorter rope.

I much prefer highbar drills though, because rope drills like this cause you to hunch your shoulders when you grab on, whereas highbar drills don't. I'd say that for beginners, rope drills are really good, but as you get more intermediate and advanced, they lose their appeal for the reasons I've just mentioned.

More paranoia ...

Sadly I don't expect this to be accepted as the wisdom of an expert in the field - I am sure all and sundry will attempt to deconstruct it and put their own take on it ...

Not at all. I fully accept your advice here!

My extra advice re the rope is just that - extra advice. There's nothing wrong with your basic advice - it's spot on.

Kirk

[altius]

Enjoy stirring you up occasionally Kirk -if I can't play with your name I have to find other ways! Glad you agree with the basic noting - will look at your alteration/addition to our rope drill.

[PVDaddy]

Here's the link I used describing how a Gymnast should perform a powerful TAP swing on a high bar.http://www.drillsandskills.com/skills/hbar/

[altius]

Anyone who comes to the advanced section who does not know how a tap swing is executed should go back to the beginners section.

Incidentally did you bother to read my earlier post? It addressed the question you raised earlier.

[PVDaddy]

Altius, you can be a big fan of pulling during the downswing in the vault all you want. I can not find in any of Petrovs writings were he suggest that or Bubka does as well in any of what he has had to say or demonstrates that in his vault. I have made it clear that I believe after penetration the emphasis must be on the whip during the downswing through the active unbending of the left hand with the forward motion of the pole. The same way a gymnast applies forward pressure (pushes away from the bar) during the downswing and that the pulling action should begin as the vaulter breaks in the hips during the upswing the same way a Gymnast pulls on the bar during the upswing. You have said yourself that the best way to learn how to use your arms during the swing in the vault is to learn it instinctively on a high bar but yet you do not advocate the same methods that world class gymnast employ? Obviously we do not agree on this and that is fine but you did not have to resort to all the slander and belittlement as of late.
You lie through your self created statements about me that I do not know what a Long swing is just because I misinterpreted your description of your drills as occurring on a high bar. You assume I was being "clever" but was not in any way when I was merely trying to get clarification? You also very incorrectly assumed (although I know, you know better. You used it as a method of self gratification and self praise at the expense of defaming my character) that I was trying to suggest the success your young vaulters were having was only do to your other coach was under minding your past accomplishments. Either that or you are experiencing extreme paranoia! You lower your self even more to name calling when you say that my post are ignorance built on ignorance. Finally you belittle me again, just because I post a description of the TAP from a Gymnastic site just to further illustrate my points and suggest that make me a beginner dumb bunny as you like to say. You say that you no longer read my post, You do not offend me, but you have lost me, as I now no longer care to read any of your post and have now fully lost any interest in attending any of your clinics. You said that I have in the past apologized and I don't recall that and that you expect another? For what? Putting up with the abuse out of respect for your age and contributions for so long? You are wrong about that and you are wrong when you say Bubka is pulling when he is extending with the pole. If he were to stop the forward extension of the bottom hand as the pole uncoils, it may make some sense but he does not do that. His very motion is in the opposite direction of a pull? What does make sense is that he is applying the same principle and method that a Gymnast applies on the high bar. Your not reading this so I do not expect any comment, nor do I want one.

[altius]

Fully understand you not wanting to continue this argument -because that is what it is - because you are continually operating form a position of ignorance.You clearly have not read my post or begun to follow my reasoning for moving from Petrov's position to Romans position on this. And you never will understand it unless you actually coach some athletes where this issue becomes important. If you do read it you will note that I never mentioned 'pulling during the down swing' -In fact I never mentioned the timing of the pull at all - and have NEVER used the term down swing.

You seem a little distraught old son - just calm down. However it seems to me that you have been quite capable of dishing it out over the past few weeks so you should be able to cope with a little flak - but perhaps it upset you that Kirk agreed with my position?

You put your case as if you have a personal line of communication with Vitali when I doubt you have ever met him. In fact he is a friend of both mine and of Roman's -as is Bubka. Have YOU ever discussed these issues with him or really studied how he brought his ideas together.

Never forget the problems of translation from one language to another -especially when describing complex movement patterns. Go back to his original 1985 presentation in Birmingham, England (its in the back of BTB2) , and see if you can really interpret what he was saying there and extrapolate it into the model we now understand. A few readers may remember a session at Reno dealing with gymnastics and the vault - it became so difficult for him to get his ideas across that several folk left the session very early - seemingly not aware of the problems he faced.

But you are right -it is time to move on. Best of luck with your coaching. Come back in ten years and tell me what you have learned.

[altius]

Fully understand you not wanting to continue this argument -because that is what it is - because you are continually operating from a position of ignorance.You clearly have not read my post or begun to follow my reasoning for moving from Petrov's position to Romans position on this. And you never will understand it unless you actually coach some athletes where this issue becomes important. If you do read it you will note that I never mentioned 'pulling during the down swing' -In fact I never mentioned the timing of the pull at all - and have NEVER used the term down swing.

You seem a little distraught old son - just calm down. However it seems to me that you have been quite capable of dishing it out over the past few weeks so you should be able to cope with a little flak - but perhaps it upset you that Kirk agreed with my position?

You put your case as if you have a personal line of communication with Vitali when I doubt you have ever met him. In fact he is a friend of both mine and of Roman's -as is Bubka. Have YOU ever discussed these issues with him or really studied how he brought his ideas together.

Never forget the problems of translation from one language to another -especially when describing complex movement patterns. Go back to his original 1985 presentation in Birmingham, England (its in the back of BTB2) , and see if you can really interpret what he was saying there and extrapolate it into the model we now understand. A few readers may remember a session at Reno dealing with gymnastics and the vault - it became so difficult for him to get his ideas across that several folk left the session very early - seemingly not aware of the problems he faced.

But you are right -it is time to move on. Best of luck with your coaching. Come back in ten years and tell me what you have learned.

[altius]

Outa here folks -got other stuff on my mind at the moment.

[PVDaddy]

Since this was not what my eyes were telling me - and not what Petrov talked about -I was doubtful until I went back to the fundamental notion that I had introduced - that vaulting on a flexible pole was like vaulting on an infinite series of straight poles (A concept that I do not believe anyone had previously annunciated) - altho I am sure Kirk will correct me. Once I put that together with the fact that Petrov made it clear that he was greatly influenced by stiff pole vaulters - most notably Warmerdam - it began to dawn on me (I am a bit slow) that if that was the case then flexible vaulters should be doing much the same as stiff polers. The latter were forced to accentuate the importance of the whip swing -a point I make much of in BTB2 - and therefore would pull to speed up that swing -there was certainly no point in them pushing the pole away in that phase.

If one is to examine flexible vaulting"based on the chord of the pole" the above bolded statement does indeed make a great deal of sense and fully explains why one is able to grip much higher on a flexible pole verses a steel pole. However, if one is to assume the swing mechanics, ie. The use of the arms should also be identical, they would be largely mistaken for two very important overlooked facts. The position of a flexible pole immediately after plant and through rock back is completely different than a stiff pole and the position of the arms and the stresses placed on the arms are different on a flexible pole vs. a straight pole. Lets just begin with the position of a straight pole after penetration as compared to a flexible pole. The straight pole does not bend after plant and through rock back but merely rotates to vertical. The angle it places on the vaulters arms is severe and the top hand must always stay above the bottom hand throughout the swing. It therefore becomes very important for the vaulter to raise his vertical component by jumping upward and to immediately apply downward pressure on the pole to raise his hips. The bottom hand would not be able to provide nearly the assistance to this effort unless it were raised to a level similar to the top hand. This is not the same effort one should make on a horizontal high bar and one could argue that a straight pole vaulter would be better off training on a vertical steel pole anchored in the ground. A flexible pole on the other hand is not only horizontal after penetration, but because it flexes is in fact slightly beyond the horizontal. The top hand is actually slightly lower than the bottom hand after penetration and through rock back. The vaulters body in relation to his arms is entirely different and he is able to have a much more pronounced downswing on a flexible pole vs a straight pole. In fact he is not required to pull at all to during the downswing, the full body coil effect through the whip is more than enough power to initiate the swing. So from a mechanical standpoint it is much more beneficial for him to begin the pulling action on flexible pole with both arms when his hips and legs begin to fight gravity during the upswing. Because both hands are in a very similar position on a flexible pole to what one finds on a high bar throughout the entire swing, the high bar is a great training apparatus for a vaulter using a flexible pole.The vaulters hand are not even close to this horizontal position on a straight stiff pole. It is entirely incorrect to say that the same swing mechanics apply when using a straight stiff pole. Take a look at the below video. Note the horizontal position (even beyond) of the pole throughout the swing and imagine the angle a steel pole would be throughout its rotation to vertical in relation to the vaulters body and arms. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98