Non-Petrovers

[KirkB]

Maybe a little off topic ... and maybe an unfair analogy, but ...

If the Americans could land on the moon ... and return safely ... in 1969 ... then why has it taken them so long to "perfect" their technique and reclaim the WR in Men's PV?

It should be a piece of cake!

Kirk

[IAmTheWalrus]

It's all in the takeoff! .....<crickets>....sorry bad pun, but I couldn't resist

[powerplant42]

If the Americans could land on the moon ... and return safely ... in 1969 ... then why has it taken them so long to "perfect" their technique and reclaim the WR in Men's PV?

Xenophobia... NOT a pun. I think the US still believes that athletics are still in some sort of Cold War... We beat them to the moon, why not try to beat them over the bar? (With our OWN methods?)

[jam354]

I'm confident that I could have broken the WR ... even in about 14 years ... not 20. But that's on a couple HUGE conditions ...

1. That I would have been recruited by Petrov at age 10. This is a HIGHLY UNLIKELY scenario, since I was a so-called 90-pound weakling at that age, and showed very few signs of athletic strength or prowess. I enjoyed sports A LOT then, but I was mediocre at best. Even in my small home town (pop. ~10,000) there were plenty of better specimens for him to choose from.

Kirk

That's exactly my point. I've heard many times that Bubka was an amazing athlete, but not that much better than a lot of other great vaulters. So the difference was his technique, but also his mastery of a specific technique that no one else has been able to duplicate to that level. His technique was so good because he learned it from a master of the technique over a very long time.

I agree with your Parnov point. And Hooker may break the world record, and if he does, we should look at his circumstances for this discussion. However, even if he breaks the world record, I can't imagine that he would continue to jump those heights over and over again as Bubka did. It would be like how Carl Lewis is the greatest long jumper ever, but doesn't have the world record.

Do we have an American Parnov?

[Andy_C]

Maybe a little off topic ... and maybe an unfair analogy, but ...

If the Americans could land on the moon ... and return safely ... in 1969 ... then why has it taken them so long to "perfect" their technique and reclaim the WR in Men's PV?

It should be a piece of cake!

Kirk

I think there's actually several interdependent reasons for that. First off, let me just say that with a population of 300 million, I can guarantee you that there's at least a handful of men in that the USA right now with the physical and mental capabilities to potentially break the world record. Why hasn't it happened?

1) Unfortunately for them, these "potential WR holders" will never even touch a pole in the lifetime. Don't forget all the other sports the USA has going! Pole vault doesn't exactly rank up there with football, basketball, baseball, hockey ect.

2) The people who have tried, have never been able to implement or replicate the Petrov model the way that Bubka and Petrov have. Of course there are those who have tried to apply principles of the model and have come *relatively* close to achieving it but still, NOBODY has been able to pull it off 100%.

3) Athletes who get into pole vault will more often than not end up with a coach who really doesn't know very much about pole vault. This was in stark contrast to the Soviet and European systems where athletes were systematically selected and raised under expert coaches from their youth (which was the case with Bubka if I can recall).

4) For whatever reason, people still refuse to accept the Petrov model. This is only doing the vaulters in the country a disservice. Think about it, the model has been out for decades but still, nobody has been able to jump higher than Bubka and there's a good reason why.

[Andy_C]

If the Americans could land on the moon ... and return safely ... in 1969 ... then why has it taken them so long to "perfect" their technique and reclaim the WR in Men's PV?

Xenophobia... NOT a pun. I think the US still believes that athletics are still in some sort of Cold War... We beat them to the moon, why not try to beat them over the bar? (With our OWN methods?)

You can come up with new ideas. Just remember, people have been trying that for years and with all due respect, it just doesn't compare. Plus, why try harder at that sort of thing when somebody has already done all the hard work in that aspect and all you have to do is train with it!

Let me allude to a military example... If anybody knows about the Punic wars between Rome and Carthage, just think about Hannibal and Scipio. For those who don't know, Hannibal was probably (from a strategic perspective) the greatest military mind that ever lived. He was responsible for nearly destroying Rome and one of the single largest military victories in history (Battle of Cannae; 56,000 Carthaginians vs 84,000 Romans - Carthage lost 8,000 soldiers, Rome lost 48,000). Hannibal (and Carthage) fell due to a number of reasons, one of which was the battle of Zama, where Hannibal was given is first and only military loss to the Romans by the hands of Pubilus Cornelius Scipio "Africanus". The Romans, have been unsuccessful at beating Hannibal in battle up to this point because of their inferior tactics. His loss came to a man who had adopted Hannibal's own tactics, which he learned from the battles Hannibal waged with his fellow Romans.

The point of this little allusion is to get the "non-believers" thinking. While I certainly don't want to promote Xenophobia, I don't think a little deep-seated competition hurts. In fact, I think competition provides a huge mental impetus for performance. If you want to duke it out with somebody in athletic competition, fine. Just don't let your pride get in the way... With Scipio, he understood that the only way to beat Hannibal was through using Hannibal's own tactics. Using Carthaginian tactics did not make Scipio "less Roman". Regardless of what strategic ideas he brought to the battlefield, Scipio flew a Roman flag. And on that note, using the Petrov model does not make you any less American or Canadian or Australian ect. It's okay to be proud of your country, just don't let it get to your head and interfere with your judgment.

Also let me just add that I don't think the Petrov model, as it stands, will be the absolute be-all-end-all of pole vaulting. I do believe that new things will arise to help people jump higher and higher. These ideas however will be an extension of the principles of the Petrov model, not something that conflicts with it.

[Robert schmitt]

I think walker is a non petrov style vaulter that we may see break the world record. He has fallen of the radar taking the indoor season off to work on tech. I think going into the trials he looked like he could come close to a WR jump.

[altius]

I think walker is a non petrov style vaulter that we may see break the world record. He has fallen of the radar taking the indoor season off to work on tech. I think going into the trials he looked like he could come close to a WR jump.

I agree with you -however it is interesting to note that he spent time with Parnov - last year?

[powerplant42]

Let me allude to a military example... If anybody knows about the Punic wars between Rome and Carthage, just think about Hannibal and Scipio. For those who don't know, Hannibal was probably (from a strategic perspective) the greatest military mind that ever lived. He was responsible for nearly destroying Rome and one of the single largest military victories in history (Battle of Cannae; 56,000 Carthaginians vs 84,000 Romans - Carthage lost 8,000 soldiers, Rome lost 48,000). Hannibal (and Carthage) fell due to a number of reasons, one of which was the battle of Zama, where Hannibal was given is first and only military loss to the Romans by the hands of Pubilus Cornelius Scipio "Africanus". The Romans, have been unsuccessful at beating Hannibal in battle up to this point because of their inferior tactics. His loss came to a man who had adopted Hannibal's own tactics, which he learned from the battles Hannibal waged with his fellow Romans.

The point of this little allusion is to get the "non-believers" thinking. While I certainly don't want to promote Xenophobia, I don't think a little deep-seated competition hurts. In fact, I think competition provides a huge mental impetus for performance. If you want to duke it out with somebody in athletic competition, fine. Just don't let your pride get in the way... With Scipio, he understood that the only way to beat Hannibal was through using Hannibal's own tactics. Using Carthaginian tactics did not make Scipio "less Roman". Regardless of what strategic ideas he brought to the battlefield, Scipio flew a Roman flag. And on that note, using the Petrov model does not make you any less American or Canadian or Australian ect. It's okay to be proud of your country, just don't let it get to your head and interfere with your judgment.

In other words, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em! (In a tactical sense, of course...)

I recall speaking with a coach in my area one day about perhaps trying drills other than one-handers... I told him that Bubka probably never did a one-hander, and he said to me, "Yeah, well the Russians did some pretty weird stuff..." I wanted to smack him! WEIRD STUFF? Bubka's not Ivan Drago, he's just a good athlete from Donetsk that trained HARD INTELLIGENTLY for a LONG TIME! I of course said nothing... Except that he might get something out of buying BTB2... "Don't need to."

Sorry for my ranting, but I think that little quip speaks to that point. See you this summer altius!

[KirkB]

... it is interesting to note that he spent time with Parnov - last year?

I think it was a couple three years ago, when he trained in Australia, until the OZZIES with the power to do so banned Parnov from continuing Walker's training.

Something to do with "conspiring with the enemy" ... to relate to Andy's analogy.

But the lineage is there ... prior to his Parnov influences, Walker was trained by Pat Licari at UW ... a strong propoent of Petrov and Botcharnikov ... and as a vaulter, Pat was trained by Rick Baggett ... who has collaborated and coached with some of the finest Petrov Model minds on the planet ... including some Wizard of Oz whose name escapes me for the moment.

SIDEBAR: Now I see why "stirring the pot" comes naturally to "the Wiz".

So I doubt that you can call Walker non-Petrov. Yes, his pike-style "tuck" (if you want to call it that) is non-conventional by Petrov standards, but you better believe that he's studied the Petrov Model INTENSELY over the past few years ... and you better believe that he's a very, very smart cookie when it comes to "being on top of his game".

Could it be that Walker regards his own technique as taking the best from BOTH the Petrov AND the Drive models? Since his current technique is by INTENT, this certainly appears to be plausible.

BTW, I score Walker as 5/6 on the Petrov Compliance Scale - two more than Skipper!

WR? A DEFINITE possibility! This year? Who knows ... Hooker has the edge right now. Has he learned anything from his bad experience at the Olympics? You bet!

It's going to be an exciting World Championships!

Kirk

[KirkB]

Speaking of Botcharnikov, we covered this issue a bit in the last page of the PV Manifesto thread (http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=4622&p=117912&hilit=Botcharnikov#p117912) last November.

Tim raised a good question ...

Leaving aside these issues of social differences, my question concerning the fact that Bubka's record seems as safe as it has ever been embraces more than just the American coaches and athletes. Altius names a number of expert coaches who have embraced the Petrov model. This begs the question. Why haven't Parnov, Botcharnikov, Krysinski, Mark Stewart, Steve Rippon, or even Petrov himself produced a successor to Bubka? The fault for this cannot lie entirely with the shortcomings of the American system. Nobody else seems to be doing any better.

... which doesn't seem to be answered yet.

Kirk

[KirkB]

... Yet when I have contacted a number of coaches in the USA to try to cooperate with them to run a clinic they have either rejected the offer out of hand (way to go Maryland!) or even worse not bothered to reply. ...

I recall speaking with a coach in my area one day ... and he said to me, "Yeah, well the Russians did some pretty weird stuff..." ... I of course said nothing... Except he might get something out of buying BTB2... "Don't need to."

Hmm ... and PP's from Maryland ... just connecting the dots!

Kirk