Pole Vault Manifesto

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.

Is 18ft vault possible for women

Poll ended at Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:12 pm

Yes
34
56%
No
27
44%
 
Total votes: 61

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KirkB
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby KirkB » Thu May 27, 2010 11:00 pm

PVDaddy wrote: This is my first post on this forum. As a Father of a High School vaulter ...

Daddy, my first reaction when I started reading your post was that you're commenting in the wrong forum ... especially with a 10-6 PR.

However, after reading your points 1-4, you made some excellent observations. :yes:

I'm not sure about your point # 5. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, or maybe I'm too focussed on PHX beating LAL tonight, but I'm not sure that Bubka is "flinging his head back" ... for starters ... but I disagree with (or don't understand) some other point you make in #5 as well. I'll reserve judgement til others comment on this particular point.

The one thing that I think you got totally wrong is that Bubka was doing the 640 Model technique in 1997. Roman dreamed this model up about 10 years AFTER that, and he was NOT referencing Bubka when he wrote the PV Manifesto ... altho this can be confusing in the way he wrote about that. Furthermore, BTB2 does not reference the technical points of the 640 Model either - despite Roman being tight with Alan, and despite Alan mentioning OTHER things about Roman in the book. Think of the 640 Model as an advanced technique ... even for Bubka.

But good show for a first post by a self-admitted rookie! Very perceptive ... are you SURE your PR was only 10-6? :yes: :dazed: :confused:

Kirk
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby vaultman18 » Fri May 28, 2010 7:51 am

KirkB wrote:The one thing that I think you got totally wrong is that Bubka was doing the 640 Model technique in 1997. Roman dreamed this model up about 10 years AFTER that, and he was NOT referencing Bubka when he wrote the PV Manifesto ...


Are you sure about that Kirk?

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby KirkB » Fri May 28, 2010 8:11 pm

If you don't agree with me, then you should state your opinion ... instead of just questioning mine. That's the purpose of this open forum. By sharing ideas, we get to the truth!

Kirk
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby powerplant42 » Fri May 28, 2010 8:37 pm

It's called the 6.40 model for a reason... It's not a number out of thin air. If I understand correctly, it's the "6.40 model" because agapit was using Bubka's "6.40" jump as the best (as of yet) example, that only using the particular motions/forces specific to HIS extension of the Petrov model would ever get anyone to 6.40 like Bubka did that day.

Am I wrong?
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby ECvaulter30 » Fri May 28, 2010 10:51 pm

my only arument to the point of agapit refering to bubka for the 6.40 model is in the "repent" forum thread were he kept referring to a savior (aka bubka?) had come and shown it was possible and within reach. at least that was how i took it
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby vaultman18 » Fri May 28, 2010 10:59 pm

KirkB wrote:If you don't agree with me, then you should state your opinion ... instead of just questioning mine. That's the purpose of this open forum. By sharing ideas, we get to the truth!

Kirk


I have stated my opinion many times on this board. And I don't have time to rehash this for every new member. Sorry if I offended you, which it seems I have. I believe PP42 beat me to the answer anyway. :yes:

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat May 29, 2010 12:07 am

Kirk, Thanks for bringing to my attention that the PV Manifesto has nothing to do with the 6.40 model. I must confess that I have never read it (and I probably need to and appologize if I got off topic) and just thought that after reading all these points that the 6.40 Model was included in it.
I was under the impression that the vault in 1997 was concidered by many as the best vault Bubka ever made and many thought that it may have been as high as 6.40? Is it not the goal of the 6.40 model to get vaulters to 6.4? Is not this vault the closest example we have of it? If he did vault 6.4 would it not be correct in stating that the 6.4 Model has already been obtained? If there is a better example please point me to it so I can study it. Thank-You for your kind comments as well. I guess I am learning a few things from all you greats! I have always loved the aspects of studying technique in sports and have had the privilege of coaching Many wrestlers to state and national titles using state of the art techniques that I personally have never used myself. I believe in the principal that there is no sense like common sense and many of the great comments I have read on here make total sense so it is not hard to relate. Yes, it is true that my pb in my limited high school carreer was only 10.6 ft on a pole that was not even close to being sized for me and I knew nothing about PV technique and had very little coaching ( Hows that for a good excuse for poor results? LOL). It has only been after this year watching my son add 2 Ft. to his Pb that I have taken an active interest in PV, although I have always loved it as perhaps a favorite.
I am so glad that you brought up point no 5 reguarding the left hand pull from " U " and am eager to here were you think I am missing the mark because It happens to be one of the key areas that I think my son can improve on in this last week before states and I truly believe it is one of the most key areas for sepperating the good from the greats.
Perhaps "snapping his head back" is not the proper way to describe what Bubka is doing, but he does it so fast, with so much force that thats what it looks like in real speed. Im not saying that he is necessarily throwing his head back from the neck ( But some of that may be occuring and if so why would that be bad and would it be concidered a passive motion?) but that his head, neck, and upperback are all flung back with TREMENDOUS force. Does it make sense that by doing that you are adding power to the pull, the pole, and the upward momentum of the body thereby puting you out ahead of the recoiling pole even more? If so this would be a critical active motion. I must admit that this is an area of the vault that I know the least about but have the most interest in learning about at present. What does 6.4 Model and anyone else have to say is the most effective way of performing the left hand pull from "U"?
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby KirkB » Sat May 29, 2010 12:40 am

vaultman18 wrote:... Sorry if I offended you, which it seems I have. ... :yes:

Vaultman, you have not offended me at all. I just think that if you have an opinion that counters mine, you should state it. That's all. I suppose that Daddy could sift thru this VERY long thread and find your comments, but you must admit, it's a VERY long thread. It's also quite confusing to read. When each person that reads it forms a DIFFERENT opinion about what it is ... and what it's not ... then that's where clarification posts are helpful. It would be helpful for you to clarify whatever you feel needs clarification. But if you don't have time for that, then why bother to stir the pot? :dazed:

I respect your opinion more than you realize, and I know that you are one of the VERY FEW vaulters on this board that can speak with the authority of having actually EXPERIENCED the 640 model.

I maintain my opinion re the 640 Model, so if you're asking me if "I'm sure", then the answer is yes, I'm sure. :dazed:

Kirk
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby KirkB » Sat May 29, 2010 1:17 am

powerplant42 wrote: ... it's the "6.40 model" because agapit was using Bubka's "6.40" jump as the best (as of yet) example, that only using the particular motions/forces specific to HIS extension of the Petrov model would ever get anyone to 6.40 like Bubka did that day.

Am I wrong?

PP, you're right ... and you're wrong. You're right about Agapit referring to Bubka's WRs as the 640 Model.
The 6.40 Model so far has produced 6.15 ...

However, I disagree that Agapit is simply talking about Bubka's technique as the 640 Model. That's actually an insult to Petrov. The technique that Bubka used for each and every WR that he set was the PETROV MODEL. It's always been called that ... by Petrov, by Bubka, and even by Alan Launder in his BTB2 book.

Bubka's technique was NOT an EXTENSION of the Petrov Model ... it WAS the Petrov Model. Inseparable.

Agapit started this post on Sat Apr 02, 2005. To make a claim on that late date that the model that Bubka was following for the better part of his career was NOT the Petrov Model ... but the 640 Model ... is OUTRAGEOUS!

Agapit raised many, many fine points in the 640 Model (on this thread) that had yet to be mentioned by Petrov, Bubka, or Launder in any of their writings or presentations. Why did Agapit think that a NEW name for the model was necessary? Because it's SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT than the Petrov Model! :idea:

On page 4 of this thread, Agapit says ...
6.40 Model is a different model similar to the block start as compared to the standing start in sprints. For example who told you before that you must invert immediately upon completing the take-off jump? How is this not a different approach (model)? ...

What in particular are you not agreeing with in the 6.40 Model? As to originality, did you ever seen anything of the sort, published anywhere except by the author?

I have 4 questions about this quote ...

1. If he's talking about Bubka's technique, then why is he arguing so hard about the originality of his model?

2. If he's talking about Bubka's technique, then why did it take him until 2005 to publish the PV Manifesto - in this thread?

3. If he's talking about Bubka's technique, then why has Petrov not brought up the very same points ... in his many lectures and presentations?

4. If he's talking about Bubka's technique, then why did Launder not provide that exact same technical information in BTB2 ... which was published in 2007?

Kirk
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby KirkB » Sat May 29, 2010 1:26 am

PVDaddy wrote: ... Thanks for bringing to my attention that the PV Manifesto has nothing to do with the 6.40 model.

No, you have this wrong. The PV Manifesto describes the 640 Model. That, and the "Repent" thread describe the 640 Model in its entirety. It's not documented anywhere else ... just here on PVP.

PVDaddy wrote: I am so glad that you brought up point no 5 reguarding the left hand pull from " U " and am eager to hear were you think I am missing the mark ... What does 6.4 Model and anyone else have to say is the most effective way of performing the left hand pull from "U"?

I'm still at a loss as to what you mean in your point #5. Perhaps we'll have to wait til the clamor of this 640 Model controversy dies down a bit. Still waiting for someone else to comment on your #5, and I'll respond after I hear other opinions. Also, I really don't know what you mean by the "U". That's not a term I'm familiar with.

I will caution you on the 640 Model tho ... it's not for high-schoolers. IMHO, it's only achievable by the very best of the best gymnasts / elite vaulters. I know of only 2 vaulters that had the athletic POTENTIAL to achieve it ... Kjell Isaksson and Christian Tamminga. Isaksson was 20 years before Bubka (some say his technique leaned towards Petrov and/or 640, but it certainly wasn't either), and Tamminga has a technique that isn't even very Petrovish.

Kirk
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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sat May 29, 2010 5:59 am

Woah... I thought we were all on the same page here, but apparently not...

I had come to think that the 6.40 model was almost like a sub-set of the Petrov model, that they were "different" yet the "same", that one could do both at the same time, that they were not incompatible! :confused:
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: Pole Vault Manifesto

Unread postby dj » Sat May 29, 2010 8:16 am

Good morning

We can argue many technical points and attribute them to Petrov, Roman, Alan, Bubka.. etc.. and some can “fit” our brain, our experience or understanding of physics..

Many points, although termed differently can mean the same thing.. for example “rowing”.. those that use that term mean the “closing” of the gap for the bodies pendulum (top grip shoulders swinging on the pole) from the inverted “C”, which has several terms but means the same, to a position vertical, and in Petrov/Bubka’s terms, past vertical or called “covering the arc of the pole.”

The head/neck should actually be kept in a “stable” alignment with the spine.. the rotation will be around the top grip until the body/spine has passed a vertical position on it’s way to a “flat back” position on the pole. There is rotation around both the hand and shoulders to this point.. from this point the rotation is around the shoulders… and the “gap”, between the body and pole, should be closed as fast as possible and with as little tuck as possible… and it is definitely one continuous fast move all the way to and through vertical around and of the top of the pole with NO stopping to let the pole “thrown” you.

Tim Mack accomplishes this extremely well in his 5.90 trials jump and practices with a stiff pole and 6 step “pop-up” to do what he calls a superman. Most vaulters and coaches have seen or tried to use the stiff pole pop-up where you swing, align with the pole, “cock” the lead leg.. and hang under the pole like a sack of potatoes and fall on your back into the pit with the pole still in your hand!!! This is and ok, “warm-up”, lead in drill for the vault but is not correct for the “real” vault.

To answer the question about throwing the head back… the vault is a swing from the toe leaving the ground until the top grip leaves the pole.. the faster you can make that happen in a vertical direction above whatever grip you have the better you can “potentially” vault.

The best way to train this correctly is to vault on a stiff pole… swing and try and go vertical on the runway side of the pole as the pole passes vertical to the ground.. find Bubba’s 360 drill.. then you will be training this movement correctly.

I want to finish with one important note.. as coaches and athletes we need to understand that the vault is RUN-PLANT-SWING.. physics will dictate each end result.. 90% of the time if your arguing about a “movement” it’s semantics’…

Do we (I) use my hands to get to vertical on the swing?? I probably do.. I know I’m pretty good at getting to vertical.. can I get my hips to my hands and “wrap” the pole.. when I focus on it and have that as my goal…

Many of the things we see different are still the same but from a different vocabulary. I do know that Petrov’s “description” of a “free takeoff” is different than Alan’s.. but I also know they mean exactly the same thing.

Here’s my advice.. the vault is run – plant – swing… practice the whole-part-whole method of learning.

Understand correct technique, correct movement and correct physics… devise drills or just select from the thousands that have been given to us from pole vaulters and coaches since the 1800’s, and train a “part” of and action.. train all “parts” and then begin to put them together..

THEN… utilize them by setting a target.. and let your “physical” do the correct movement from the start of an action to the "target."

For example.. I teach correct pole carry position, correct position for “toeing” the start mark..etc.. the first “target is.... posture, acceleration, “push out” from the start and hitting consistently and with speed at our pre-determined “MID” point.

Then the second “target” is to “get the feet down” as the pole is being dropped to the plant ... over the last 6 steps.

The third “target” is to have a early (pole tip half way up the box) high, aggressive plant with the vaulter up on the ball of the takeoff foot, REACHING HIGH, just before the tip ‘smacks” into the back of the box.

Now that’s the targets I’m striving for.. BUT they don’t have to “think” all of this…

We practice the individual parts and then on a vault or at a meet all I say is………..

Come out of the back…….. get the feet down….. plant BIG…

Most of the time they “devise” their own version of this sentence and I may not say anything other than “just pole vault”…

On the takeoff it might be… get the feet down quicker and reach higher…

On the swing it is usually “swing really fast to vertical before the pole unbends”… I often remind them that the pole will bend and unbend in less than “one thousand and one”…

So they had better be moving…

Often the “target” on the swing is to get the right knee slightly wrapped around the back of the top grip and the body vertical, top arm still straight… AND I remind them this is a position to pass through not stop at…

We do have so much “vocabulary” that it is sometimes difficult to communicate!! I know that is kinda “profound” but years ago I tried to get the school systems to include sign language starting with the first grade. Think about it.. communication gets simple when words don’t get in the way..

If I flip you the “bird” you get the meaning quickly and without the sounding vocabulary.

My solution to getting to vertical.. is of course to have the “lead up physics” in order at the takeoff but them just swing to/through vertical..

do a simple test with your vaulters. Stand them under the high bar and tell them to jump up grab the bar and swing to vertical. head down feet up...

I challenged Earl when he was a sophomore in college… I told him he couldn’t be a world class vaulter until he could jump up and grab the chin-up bar in the hall outside my office and “shoot” up and over the bar without crashing his chest into the bar!! This was an exercise I saw Wammardam do in a film training for the vault.

For days after practice Earl would come in the gym and before he headed to the locker room he would try this exercise.

One day late in the fall he came in the office and said.. come here.. I went into the hall with him.. he leaped up.. grabbed the bar, his adrenalin was so high, he shot up into a handstand and actually slammed his feet into the ceiling!! He just stop in a handstand, arms locked, feet on the ceiling.. and started laughing.. I though he was going to fall head first and get hurt.. He jumped 17-6 indoors and 18-2 outdoors and won NCAA.

Give the athlete “targets” .. that they can visualize… and if they have been trained properly and are an athlete, they will do the correct movement to get to the "target."

Think about Fosbury… he had a “target”, the bar.. he turned the “scissor” technique into the “flop” because he had foam rubber to land in.. it would not have happened without the target and the physics…….we (I) was using the scissor technique in the high jump but couldn’t “lay back” because of the sawdust pit.. we were using the physics to jump high both in the scissor high jump and in basketball when we jumped to dunk from a run.

The vault is still a “stiff pole vault” but with a bending pole… the run and plant is to “shorten the radius” and the swing is to bring the pole cord to vertical by the time that shortened radius is back at it’s full length (straight) .. a continuous fast swing gives you the height above handgrip.. and yes the “unbending” pole helps lighten the load but doesn’t catapult you.. if you don’t do the work during the swing and wait to be catapulted you will “fall” of the pole with very little height above grip.

Hope this fits some points..

From what I know of Romans work.. he knows the vault from take off to max height pretty well.

I do know Petrov structured Bubka in his early career.. maybe up and to the world record.. I’m not quite sure when but Bubka seemed to make his own decisions in his “later” vault career.. whither those thoughts corresponded to Petrov or not are not worth debating.

Hope this is helpful for all of us..

dj

ps..

6.40 Model is a different model similar to the block start as compared to the standing start in sprints. For example who told you before that you must invert immediately upon completing the take-off jump? How is this not a different approach (model)? ...

Who was this a quote from.. Roman??

This is the way Tully was taught.. and many vaulters before him…

And I agree with this… I just felt as and athlete in the long jump and pole vault, and as a coach, I wanted to get all the “physics” out of the takeoff that was possible.. or an explosive “impulse” BAM.. Attack and then swing like H&%%...


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