Pole Vault Manifesto

[powerplant42]

Could you please explain why you think this?

[Barto]

"More flexible" poles will not lead to higher vaults. Here is why. Poles do not throw the vaulter up over their top hand. Vaulters swing up over the top hand. It is very difficult to swing on a pole that is bent much past 90 degrees. Poles that bend more than current models will not allow the vaulter to swing up above their top hand.

[powerplant42]

I suspect that you are saying that when the top of the pole points past horizontal the pole becomes difficult to swing on.

The key here is the sail piece. The pole will bend 'out' much more, allowing for a grip position that never goes much past horizontal.

[Barto]

The angle of the handle of the pole doesn't matter much. What makes it difficult is that the pole is not moving forward when it bends past 90. The vaulter's swing is relative to the movement of the pole. Once the pole bends past 90 the movement of the pole slows significantly. Pole speed is the key to swinging up and off the top.

[KirkB]

... What makes it difficult is that the pole is not moving forward when it bends past 90. ...

Ahhh! I get that!

But if the bend twists to the side (as it always does - with any pole technology), does that make a difference to the max optimal bend? Provided it doesn't shoot you sideways, of course.

Kirk

[Barto]

... What makes it difficult is that the pole is not moving forward when it bends past 90. ...

Ahhh! I get that!

But if the bend twists to the side (as it always does - with any pole technology), does that make a difference to the max optimal bend? Provided it doesn't shoot you sideways, of course.

Kirk

No. The forward movement of the pole should actually be called the forward movement of the cord of the pole - the imaginary line that extends between the two ends of the pole. The lateral swinging of the bend is actually just rotation of the pole around the cord. It does not move the cord forward.

It is difficult to swing on a pole that is in the process of bending past 90 degrees because as the pole bends past that point the vaulter's top hand is actually getting closer to the ground. It is like trying to swing on a high bar while the bar is sliding down it's supports. This type of a jump could only occur is the vaulter is very very far under (think 3 feet+) and the pole is hitting it's max bend while the vaulter is still on the ground. Not a very good idea.

[dj]

Good morning

One of the reasons we can even have the Pole Vault Manifesto (Petrov/Bubka model) is the bend qualities of the poles Bubka jumped on… in 1983 it was determined that Bubka’s bend with his 5 meter grip was 33%. I haven’t spent any time trying to compare 33 percent to bending a pole 90 degree.. the percentage of bend based on the grip tells me how much I shortened the beginning pole cord length and how much cord length that had to be rotated to vertical. To me those numbers are much more important than the degree of bend..

Rotating the length of the “shortened cord” to vertical is fundamental to the physics of pole vaulting and is accomplished by, of course the athletes body position at take off but particularly the horizontal speed at takeoff and… the speed and length of the body during the first half of that swing.

In 1983 Tully and Bell were bending their poles 28 percent of the cord.. Bubka 33 percent. If Bubka gripped 16-5 and bent the pole 33 percent he had an 11 foot cord to move to vertical.. if Tully and Bell gripped 16-0 feet and bent the pole 28 percent they had a 12 foot cord to move to vertical! So Bubka was gaining approximately two hand grips, 8” because of maximum bend along, with out considering running speed or technique! Each hand grip is worth approximately 6” in bar height.

Another big factor is the speed of the swing. The time from the toe leaving the ground to the vaulters body reaching maximum height has to be in the range of 1.47 to 1.43 seconds. Maximum bend needs to occur approximately (.50) one half of a second! from the takeoff and the vaulters body needs to be horizontal to the runway at that point. One last point that is critical to the timing is the “impulse” at the takeoff. Yes taking off with a high top hand, just before the pole tip hits the back of the box is preferable.. but every vault, out, under or on is better with an “up’ impulse at the takeoff. In other words the body mass has to be moving up when the pole contacts the back of the box. this action not only helps the vaulter continue the chain.. it helps the pole function properly and "load and Un load" with the bodies swing.

The pole design, mandrel size, length, wall thickness of the poles and the correct physics of his takeoff and swing technique allowed Bubka to jump the way he did and create the “Model”. Any pole that did not “match” the bend qualities of what he considered his “best” pole would not allow him to use the “Model”.. even the stiffer poles he tried to use did would not allow the correct technique.

I guess one point I’m trying to make is “bigger” is not always better… not even for the world record holder.

Another point is the pole design has a major effect on the technique and “model” that a vaulter can or will follow.

Designing a pole to “create” various techniques such as a greater angle at takeoff, or designed in a way to bend more at the top to seemingly make it easier to “rockback” or bend more at the bottom to get an initial “bump” toward moving the pole to vertical or moving the sail piece up and down or changing any number of the base principals will only create “ghost” gains, those gains will have to be adjusted to somewhere later in the vault creating a lose of energy and a break in the “chain”.

The reason I’m putting this in here, in the Pole Vault Manifesto, is because the Pole and it’s design were just as important as Bubka and Pertrov to the final result.

You cannot teach the Bubka/Pertrov model without that pole. I don’t mean that brand, color or that one exactly but any pole that doesn’t have those same parameters or bend qualities of shortening of the radius will either change the technique or break.

dj

I’m not sure I’m following Barto’s big bend logic… yes a big bend will get into the back of the box more.. but if done correctly, as Bubka proved.. because his poles bent big and had very little wear/damage 8” up at the base.. the same for T-Mack after he corrected his takeoff and “impulse”. Of course the pole going to the corner gives it more depth because of the angle..

[KirkB]

The forward movement of the pole should actually be called the forward movement of the cord of the pole ... The lateral swinging of the bend is actually just rotation of the pole around the cord. It does not move the cord forward.

Ahhhh!

That makes perfect sense! I actually knew that (or should have known that), but I didn't connect the dots. Thanks!

BTW, I've seen various spellings of "chord". Here's the dictionary definition, with the correct spelling ...

chord n. in geometry, a straight line joining two points on the circumference of a circle.

And dj, what you say also sounds very convincing, so I'll take your word for it. Thank you very much for your continued insight and expertise into pole technology and vaulting technique over the past 3 decades (when I was living in a cave). It is very much appreciated.

Kirk

[Pogo Stick]

You cannot teach the Bubka/Pertrov model without that pole. I don’t mean that brand, color or that one exactly but any pole that doesn’t have those same parameters or bend qualities of shortening of the radius will either change the technique or break.

In my opinion, the relation between vaulting model and pole technology is little over emphasized.
If I remember well, Bubka started to jump with UCS poles around 1987-1988. Until then he was on Pacers, the same poles available long tme ago to all other elite and non-elite vaulters (including me) all around the world. He jumped over 6m on these old Pacers and 6m is even today very respectable and unfortunately rare achievement.
Except Nordic, all other pole manufacturers are US companies, and US vaulters have had easy access to best poles available. As your story about Majic pole shows, elite US vaulters were able to order (and use) custom made poles. This was something unimaginable to Russians and majority of other world vaulters before Bubka (with exception of Kozakiewicz). Also, as Agapit stated once, availability of fiberglass poles in Russia was very limited in quantity and quality:

When I started vaulting in Russia in 1979 we hardly had any fiberglass poles. When I got to 16' in high school my first sky pole was 16'6" 175 with my body weight at 158LBS. I have no-heighted in 50% of competitions. We just did not have poles. I did not know until much later that 16' and 15' poles existed at all.

On Bubka's video from 1st World Championship 1983 you can see the same technical model as in 1988, 1992 and 1997. He was learning this model long time before 1983, probably using all kind of available Pacers, old CataPoles, SkyPoles and who know what else.

[dj]

hello

you actually make my point... many of the "old" pacers after 1976 had the "Majic" pole technology.. even after George was no longer with us the poles were made form the pattern books at the factory.. Spirit continued that basic technology...

the poles that i measured of Bubka's in LA and the patterns that the manufacture confirmed with me... fit the Majic pole... Bubka had to replace one of his "honey" poles.. not sure of the flex?? 10.6 maybe.. the new one had a different sail piece dimension… and he had trouble using it..

Gatalin needed a stronger pole and wanted the “fastest” possible pole that gill/pacer could make.. this was after gill bought them but before carbon… they made him the fastest pole ever made and it was only .2 stiffer.. not much for an animal like he was.. 26 foot long jumper 13.70 hurdler and some one said he might have triple jump 55 feet!!! I checked the sail pattern before he used it.. I told a friend that that pole is getting ready to “stand him up”..
Bam.. he got slapped.. and not because he didn’t run… his “MID” was on....... his takeoff was out and up.. he looked at the pole and walked over and laid it on the floor beside the pole rack.. that’s where it was at the end of the meet.. I returned it to the manufacture and told them why I thought it didn't work.. and that was solely because of the pattern..

I am not trying to create controversy… I’m just trying to relay my experience… the pole design matters so much more than we want to imagine. I saw so many kids, especial girls who were using a green pole, a black pole, a white pole, a blue pole.. then again.. back and forth.. jump great on one but bad on the others.. over and over.. get them a series of poles with similar patterns and the problems go away.. I coached a girl with a 3 year each year...PR of 12’5…. After three months with very little jumping and no poles.. we went to a meet.. I borrowed a pacer 1340 because it had a similar pattern and was the “next” pole up.. from the 12 footers i had... she jumped 13-6 without a miss.. moved her to a bigger pole, another brand, but same pattern… she almost made 14’, 13-10, 13-8 in a jump off and made 13-6 again with another "different pole" but same basic pattern…

I feel very strongly that Toby Stevenson’s “straight” takeoff leg (front leg) after the take off ….was from the pole design.. the reason I feel that way? I had a girl doing the same thing.. when I checked the patterns they were the same.. different models, same company, of pole but same pattern position and proportions..

The same poles that Dave Roberts, Earl Bell and Tully jumped on in the late 70’s had the pattern of the “Majic” pole the same as did Bubka’s.. what actually made Bubka’s technique with the left arm “look” the way it did was the pole bend and the higher grip he had.. Bubka held the top of the 5 meter poles while Tully, Roberts and Bell rarely held 16’.. that put Bubka’s mass much higher up on the sail piece and also put most of his grip completely above the sail piece.. a more symmetrical bend … that allowed the top of the pole to bend over easier because he only had the body wrap portion for support with the high grip..

Sorry don’t want to convince anyone against their will… just want the info I have collected for 30 years to be in the mix……

dj

[Pogo Stick]

hello

you actually make my point... many of the "old" pacers after 1976 had the "Majic" pole technology.. even after George was no longer with us the poles were made form the pattern books at the factory.. Spirit continued that basic technology...

the poles that i measured of Bubka's in LA and the patterns that the manufacture confirmed with me... fit the Majic pole... Bubka had to replace one of his "honey" poles.. not sure of the flex?? 10.6 maybe.. the new one had a different sail piece dimension… and he had trouble using it..

The same poles that Dave Roberts, Earl Bell and Tully jumped on in the late 70’s had the pattern of the “Majic” pole the same as did Bubka’s.. what actually made Bubka’s technique with the left arm “look” the way it did was the pole bend and the higher grip he had.. Bubka held the top of the 5 meter poles while Tully, Roberts and Bell rarely held 16’.. that put Bubka’s mass much higher up on the sail piece and also put most of his grip completely above the sail piece.. a more symmetrical bend … that allowed the top of the pole to bend over easier because he only had the body wrap portion for support with the high grip..

Sorry don’t want to convince anyone against their will… just want the info I have collected for 30 years to be in the mix……

dj

DJ, I have no reason to not trust you - you were at the source for 30 years and you have keen interest in technology side. I also know from my personal experience that poles from different manufacturers "work" different. Not necessary better or worst - just different.

Bubka was definitely fast and strong, but certainly not The Fastest and The Strongest. His model suits him like a glove, but was not designed for superhumans only. Experience of others coaches and athletes show that you don't need to be Bubka to learn and use that model.

Bubka jumped like Bubka when he was not so strong and fast. He did not start learn his technique 1983 or 1987 or 1990 or when USC pole came up.
His model was not built around specific pole design. The model was created before Majic pole. If some pole design helped him to jump higher, this is just coincidence - a side effect not cause.

How high could Bubka jump with Catapole 550+ or brown SkyPole? Definitely not 20 ft. Could he jump higher than anyone else could by using these poles? Probably yes. Does his technique/model allow him to jump higher, or that was some specific pole design? I am sure that was model.

When some new and better pole design or technology come up, all vaulters benefit. If by some miracle pole improvement stoped in 1972, the world record will be lower, but I am convinced that Bubka will still hold them.

I am sure he was testing different poles during his career. I heard some rumors about testing Nordic poles from Sweden athletes. Why he did not switch to
carbon? Was that just matter of contract with UCS or something else? Do you know anything about this?

[dj]

Good morning PogoStick

It’s not really a matter of trust or respect .. but I appreciate your honesty.. some of my “thoughts” (like the chart) seem “out there” .. although I think it’s a matter of understanding and communication…

I hope I can find the proper way to explain and then I am reasonably sure (from your experience of different poles “work” different) it will become logical why I have found they work different … not mystical science just fundamental science.

Poles work different even within there own brand.. George Moore poles would work different from one flex to the next depending on what he had to do to the pattern to make the pole stronger or weaker. All the top vaulters had poles that even though they had the right flex…they would not work… I started asking why? A long time ago…In the 70’s when Earl was dropping his knee we wondered why he would continue to keep doing it even though at some point we thought it might be better if he didn’t… but the knee drop wasn’t as bad on some poles…and his overall technique seemed to be better during his world record years.. I think he was on a blue Sky pole at the time but I don’t have the pattern of that pole… I do have the patterns of some of the poles just before that time and have felt that those poles and where he gripped contributed to the technique…. Just as on Dave Roberts dropped his knee slightly on his 18’61/2 (5.65m) jump in Gainesville in 1975… and David was considered a classic knee driver…

then in 1981 when I got a chance to have a long talk with George Moore I was really “armed” with a need to know. One key point about how he made the poles stuck with me more than the other variables.... that point was the “ridge”.. or the short side of the sail piece trapezoid. In Bass fishing the “ridge” is what allowed you to “set the hook” based on the type of bait you were using, your own reflexes, the type of water or cover you were fishing. If you needed a quicker set you lengthened the “ridge” so that the “snap” will travel quicker to the tip of the rod… enough Bass fishing.

George said he would lengthen the “short side’ of the trapezoid to get a bigger flex on the same mandrel, same width of fabric, same number of wraps..etc.. he would lengthen the short side from 50/60 inches up to around 85 inches..in small increments to move up flexes.. from 2 to 5 points at a time…. then if he needed a bigger flex and the middle of the trapezoid had reached 85 inches he would have to change to a bigger mandrel, drop the middle trapezoid dimension back to 50/60 inches and start the process over…(these were the 5 meter poles) by keeping the pattern books he had a reasonable starting point to make a specific pole, based on the consistency of the glass of course.

The Length of the middle of the sail is where I first saw some specific “action” characteristics of the pole. If Tully, or anyone else for that matter, got a new pole that had a stronger flex AND a much longer “short side’ on the sail piece, he had serious difficulty getting on and using the pole..the sail piece on the 5 meter pole was 180 inches.. a 60-60-60 proportion seemed best. But we found when his speed was good or there was “wind” that if he was slightly “blowing through” on a 12.5 with a 60 middle that we had a 12.5 (same flex) with a 70 inch middle (55-70-55 sail) that would pick him up “quicker” and if he swung faster he would scream off the top.. clearing 19 feet with some of his best air……

As I said before Gatalin asked for the “fastest” pole possible in a specific flex… How do you make the pole “faster”? Lengthen it’s “ridge’ like in Bass fishing. The pole that was sent to him had a 95 inch center on the sail piece.. 42.5-95-42.5!!! that’s why I said before hand that the pole was going to “stand him up”! I was not wishing him to fail but he really didn’t know what he wanted in the pole. His concept was off. A “faster’ pole does not play into the Physics of the event. What he really needed was a symmetrical pattern or slightly longer Middle of the sail based the pole he had PRed on, and I think he would have chased Bubka higher. I think the carbon poles kept him from jumping higher.

The length of the “ridge” in relationship to the pole length and grip area in every “honey” pole that I checked has had similar characteristics and proportions. The poles that didn’t work… all had similar characteristics as well… but those characteristics turned out to be what you “didn’t” want in a pole.

But of course you can always find a few exceptions. And I would not be fair if I didn’t point out a couple. Billy Olson had a yellow “honey” pole that I checked in San Diego, I think, at the last indoor meet they had a Balboa stadium. His pole had a very small middle.. 36 inches.. (68-36-68)(this pole had a "cresent" shaped sail but still had a ridge) so the “ridge’ was very small. My first thought was if he had tried another pole with the same flex? He actually said he had, but this pole was easier to “get onto”.. that made a little sense..because the top and bottom would bend more…. and before I could asked my next question, he said “this pole is great if I grip no higher than here and no lower than here.” BAM.. where he griped would determine where his “mass” would swing through the pole at maximum bend! Why did it make a difference? If you take a compos and draw a circle from the grip to the butt and on through the pole at maximum bend you will see where the mass “crosses” the pole putting more force in that area.. a tall vaulter would be lower than a short vaulter if they had the same grip. So if Billy raised his grip it would put his “mass’ above the strength of the pole (the top corner of the trapezoid) meaning the pole would “mush” for him. I have seen poles break at that very point on some poles and it appeared if I was there or had film of the jump that there mass came through exactly and that juncture of the sail piece.

So does this make sense as to why Joe Dial could jump on a pole with a higher sail piece? What it said to me was, because he had a shorter body, it put his mass “crossing” the sail piece at a point that would keep it “moving” into the pit. Does this mean “tuck” vaulter can use poles with a higher sail piece or “tuck” because of a higher and or faster sail piece?

Another factor was the “center’ of the sail, the center of the pole based on grip and the length of the body from grip to the center of mass. Mike Tully was “long” and 90” from the bottom was where most of his poles were.. but of course sometimes the company would “trim” more or less from the butt end when they were pulled from the oven and that figure could “bump” by an inch or two. When I did the compos on pictures of Mike at maximum bend he came through, based on a 16-3 grip, at about 91-92 inches.. so we always tried to keep him above the “roll” of the pole. On occasion, but rarely, we would snip an inch from the butt end. Once he started gripping 16-5 with ease, that wasn’t a problem.. we actually had some 5.10’s made and moved the sail up very slightly.

Here is what Mike said about the center of the pole. He felt like he wanted his body to swing just “above” that center point.. that way he was “swinging” across the top of the “wave’ so to speak and felt he could roll the pole more efficiently and with less effort, rather than with it lower or higher. Those California Surfer Dudes!!!

Bubka jumped like Bubka when he was not so strong and fast. He did not start learn his technique 1983 or 1987 or 1990 or when USC pole came up.

It would be interesting to see what poles designs he learned his “Model” on.. and where he gripped according to the sail piece. And if we could get the patterns for the pacers he jumped on and the spirits he jumped his best on??? any body know how to mget that info???

How high could Bubka jump with Catapole 550+ or brown SkyPole? Definitely not 20 ft. Could he jump higher than anyone else could by using these poles? Probably yes. Does his technique/model allow him to jump higher, or that was some specific pole design? I am sure that was model.

I think the Catapole 550+ was the pattern of the Bob Seagren Pacer III.. it would have depended if the pole was made with the upper extreme of the short side of the sail or symmetrical. Of course I feel he would have jumped the world record at the time. On the Browning I think Bubka would have held higher than Isaksson, had a bigger symmetrical bend and a more extended left arm (but not fully extended like his 80’s Model) and held the world record… but the poles may have broken pretty often because they didn’t have spiral wrap for support.

I am sure he was testing different poles during his career. I heard some rumours about testing Nordic poles from Sweden athletes. Why he did not switch to carbon? Was that just matter of contract with UCS or something else? Do you know anything about this?

I don’t really know how the old Nordics were made so I can’t make a comparison. I do know that from information I got from Bruce Caldwell, that the pole that was used by Kozakiewicz (Bruce’s Max 4?)in the 1980 Olympics was the Ddesign and proportions of the “magic” pole. That pole could have worked for Bubka the same as his early pacers did. Again yes he would have had the world record.

I don’t know anything about Bubka trying other poles or not using carbon.. I personally don’t think he would have jumped better on carbon.

I believe if you are going to jump or coach from a “physics”, continuous chain model such as the Manifesto, the pole dimensions and properties are a key element.

Would I love to design the perfect pole for every vaulter in the world? Yes.. Do I feel confident in my experiences and experimentation that I could determine if a vaulters pole needed to be changed and that if it was changed they would jump higher… absolutely..

Dj

I will try and continue to explain… if necessary because I know that if I explain it correctly most will see why the pole can be an issue and if it is not an issue at least you have eliminated an element so you can move on to coaching technique.