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superpipe wrote:

ADTF Academy wrote:What I saying is not everyone should be preached to have a 1' outside takeoff. I have heard of coaches trying to get everyone to jump from a foot out. That is taking it to the extreme. If you don't have athleticism to handle that kind of impulse and maintain velocity coming off the ground than its not a good idea to teach taking off a foot out.

Are you saying it's ok or even "good" for certain athletes to take-off one foot out, much less 6" out? If so, how do you justify this?

Once again when did I ever say it should be 1' out...... Never.......... I'm not an english teacher so I will take some responsibility in my grammar being crap at times. I am puzzled how it came off as me needing to justify taking off out...... Exaggeration makes it easy to prove a point.

Like DJ posted ON is best. On is different for different people. I have seen and talked with athletes who were being told a pre jump is taking off way way out. What is way way out is different in every persons mind. There is extremes to everything. Like taking off under. I have seen athletes of extraordinary caliber take off over a foot out and safely complete jumps as well as over a foot under and complete jumps. Two come to mind right away.... Ashton Eaton and Markov. Taking off under example would be Hysong to win the Gold Medal. He told me first hand on that jump he took off almost a foot under got rocked but knew how to salvage the jump to win the gold. Do I say either example is right. When have I ever preached that. Too funny.

Given the direction of this debate with all of the references to athletes that many of you might never have seen vault can I insert a a commercial break - normal US practice - to suggest that you contact Sean Brown at Neovault.com to purchase a dvd containing superb - originally 16 mm black and white film, much of it in slow motion, that shows jumps by athletes as far back as Slusarski OC 1976, many of the great French vaulters and most of the Soviet vaulters - with a lot of film of Bubka naturally. No US vaulters because by and large there is plenty of film available of them - I am sure dj can access it!

ADTF Academy wrote:

superpipe wrote:

ADTF Academy wrote:What I saying is not everyone should be preached to have a 1' outside takeoff. I have heard of coaches trying to get everyone to jump from a foot out. That is taking it to the extreme. If you don't have athleticism to handle that kind of impulse and maintain velocity coming off the ground than its not a good idea to teach taking off a foot out.

Are you saying it's ok or even "good" for certain athletes to take-off one foot out, much less 6" out? If so, how do you justify this?

Once again when did I ever say it should be 1' out...... Never.......... I'm not an english teacher so I will take some responsibility in my grammar being crap at times. I am puzzled how it came off as me needing to justify taking off out...... Exaggeration makes it easy to prove a point.

Like DJ posted ON is best. On is different for different people. I have seen and talked with athletes who were being told a pre jump is taking off way way out. What is way way out is different in every persons mind. There is extremes to everything. Like taking off under. I have seen athletes of extraordinary caliber take off over a foot out and safely complete jumps as well as over a foot under and complete jumps. Two come to mind right away.... Ashton Eaton and Markov. Taking off under example would be Hysong to win the Gold Medal. He told me first hand on that jump he took off almost a foot under got rocked but knew how to salvage the jump to win the gold. Do I say either example is right. When have I ever preached that. Too funny.

That's why I asked you if that was what you meant. I didn't dictate that's what you meant. I probably should have added "I assumed you didn't mean that", but the way it was written, indicated you supported the "teaching" of a one foot "out" take-off for some athletes.

Just to clarify:

ADTF Academy wrote:On is different for different people.

"different people" only refers to an athlete's "reach height" from their top hand to the ground

Branko720 wrote:DJ great posts, I again will say I don't understand what David B. is advocating and I asked on a previous post an important questions. I would like to know what David B. think that the advantage a fiberglass pole has over a stiff pole (bamboo, aluminum)? The answer to this question may be very revealing. I don't think anyone in their right mind would advocate an under take-off on a stiff pole. And is David B. advocating coaches to teach an under take-off?

Also who out here on these posts has been calling for athletes to take-off a foot out?

I agree with DJ too far out or under is bad, and on is good.

As I read David B's posts it seems like he is trying to make a good point...we all are trying to follow only one model. If people didn't question the western roll we wouldn't have the Fosberry Flop. SO it is good that he is trying to think outside the box, but I do believe that, like the Fosberry Flop, we have used physics to find the best technique.

He is opposed to training athletes to take off before the pole hits the box. The point he may be missing is that the time between the take off and pole contacting is a VERY small time.

The major issue he still has not confronted is that if he is questioning the Petrov model, he needs to replace it with something. So what belief/model do you use David? You don't coach the Petrov model as many understand it. What do you coach?

If people didn't question the western roll we wouldn't have the Fosberry Flop. SO it is good that he is trying to think outside the box, but I do believe that, like the Fosberry Flop, we have used physics to find the best technique.

Actually the Fosbury Flop.. did not come from the questioning of the western roll… I came from an athlete using the "scissor" technique, which was around when sawdust pits were around… but only "migrated" to the flop when foam pits or mattresses were use to "soften" the fall.. allowing the athlete to go from a "sitting" landing, which was used in the siccor to a back landing in the flop..

The best "thinking out of the box" result from the western roll was a technique call the "dive straddle" performed by Pat Mazdorf.. it was sometimes called the "windmill"… it was the nearest anyone had gotten to a "dive" over the bar after taking off on one foot.. some gymnast had gone over 7 feet by diving from two feet but that was illegal..

Mazdorf also used a curved "J" run… maybe the first curved approach… he came in from the left side.. with a "J" run and took off from the left foot and performed his dive straddle.

Floppers that approach from the left go from the right foot… the Flop is as near as you can get to a "dive" technique as one can get.. and being "hinged" backwards has it own, by "physics" , advantages.. the next world record holder will have a Flop technique with a continue "back flip" over the bar and land on their feet or knees…

Of course the pole vault has had its own technical "factors" or what is talked about as a "model".. the "model" is actually not determined just by coaching but by "physics"..combined with the "logic" of how that physics is put into motion, with the first step, pole carry,, etc..etc.. and part of that "physics", as I have said before was the pole design Bubka used, the grip on that design based on his speed.. his takeoff point as it related to the other factors including speed and "impulse (I feel it really shouldn't be termed a jump because it is and should be to subtle to be called a jump) and how, explained by Pertrov in his paper which has been publish on this board.

Several of use have tried to give our interpretation of Bubka's and Petrov's words.. but although I try and explain what I think they said and did by using experience and physics, you the coach, you the athlete has to read it yourself and interpret and use what can best work for you…

Butt.. do not defy physics… if you don't know what that means.. get some info and find out before you decide on a model…

I personal believe Pretrov described it correctly… but that fits my interpretation..

dj

Dj are you always on?!? You are like Sheldon Cooper from the show Big Bang Theory!!!

superpipe wrote:
Just to clarify:

ADTF Academy wrote:On is different for different people.

"different people" only refers to an athlete's "reach height" from their top hand to the ground

Plant styles and freedom in the upper body takeoff movements will indicate different step needed as well. Real example (both our two of the top US Woman right now).... two elite woman both jumping over 14'6".... They are both 5'8" tall..... If both have a 13'9" grip on a pole Athlete A needs roughly 10'9 to 11' takeoff to be on for her. Athlete B need 11'2 to 11'5 to be on. Why.... Athlete A is more relaxed through the hands and has great shoulder flexibility. She gets more stretch IE Chest Penetration before tension is overly applied on the pole at takeoff. Athlete B is stiffer through the shoulders and gets into a stretch position sooner with less chest penetration at takeoff. Therefore for each to be able to finish their takeoff completely be on their toe as the pole is starting to bend they have different takeoff spots even though they have same reach and are using the same grip.


Different "ON" spots for different people. This is a very rough explanation and example. Its way more to it than that, but it states my point.

hheh lol

i hope that was said with a little humor.....

i have had great experiences, studied and researched the sport intently... challenged as a coach by some great athletes, managed to find some good answers for them and watch them produce great results........

i have always asked why? when many did not want me to ask why!

have had 51 years in the sport... and i'm as excited today as i have ever been...

dj

Yes but it is nice to add to dj 's posts and even challenge them!!!! The key to the alteration in the straddle technique and the introduction of the flop was an IAAF rule change that allowed the athlete to lead over the bar with their head. Given that up until around the same time, high jumpers were landing in sand or sawdust pits that rule had been necessary. However the advent of air bag pads and foam landing areas changed the whole situation.

Re the "Dive" - unfortunately that term may encourage coaches who do not fully understand the biomechanics of the flop technique to encourage a diving movement -whereas that is the last thing a jumper should be thinking of. Instead they should imagine themselves driving VERTICALLY up plate glass window at take off = knowing the centripetal forces they have established through the curved run up will carry them over the bar - without them having to use any force at take off to do that. That was one of the major advantages of the flop over the straddle =where the jumper had to allocate some force to actually cross the bar - this had to diminish the amount they could apply to leaping vertically.

Way off topic - but what the heck! Most of what is being debated was buried on PVP years ago. David can keep going 'back to the future' but if he is serious surely he must be coaching athletes in his model - somewhere - or is this all hypothetical bull dust?

What a mess, I'll re-read this in the morning and post my opposition.

In the mean time, I really hope nobody takes this David Bussabarger seriously. Though everyone is entitled to their opinion, he does NOT have the right to ruin any athlete's careers because he's too lazy to do the math.

You want to jump 19', you jump like a 19-footer. You want to jump a WORLD RECORD, you jump like the WORLD RECORD HOLDER

-6P

dj wrote:hheh lol

i hope that was said with a little humor.....

i have had great experiences, studied and researched the sport intently... challenged as a coach by some great athletes, managed to find some good answers for them and watch them produce great results........

i have always asked why? when many did not want me to ask why!

have had 51 years in the sport... and i'm as excited today as i have ever been...

dj

Said with much humor. I hope I can keep my passion for the sport going for 50 years!

altius wrote:Given the direction of this debate with all of the references to athletes that many of you might never have seen vault can I insert a a commercial break - normal US practice - to suggest that you contact Sean Brown at Neovault.com to purchase a dvd containing superb - originally 16 mm black and white film, much of it in slow motion, that shows jumps by athletes as far back as Slusarski OC 1976, many of the great French vaulters and most of the Soviet vaulters - with a lot of film of Bubka naturally. No US vaulters because by and large there is plenty of film available of them - I am sure dj can access it!

I FIND IT REALLY INTERESTING THAT NO ONE - AND I MEAN NO ONE - HAS BOTHERED TO GET HOLD OF SOME FILM THAT WILL RESOLVE MUCH OF THE BULL.... DEBATE GOING ON AT THIS TIME. SO IT REALLY IS JUST A TALKFEST WITH NO ONE INTERESTED IN THE 'FACTS' AT LEAST AS THEY ARE REVEALED ON THIS FILM. YES I AM SHOUTING - AND NO APOLOGIES THIS TIME.

I KNOW IT WILL COST A FEW BUCKS BUT GIVEN THAT I SPENT OVER 7000 BUCKS TO GO TO EUROPE IN 1979 TO MEET THE COACHES THERE AND ANOTHER 3000 PLUS TO GO TO FORMIA IN 2006 - I FIND THIS REALLY INTERESTING -ALSO BEEN TO RENO TO CHECK OUT THE US SCENE ON MANY OCCASIONS HOWEVER I AM SURE I WILL BE DELUGED WITH RESPONSES FROM INDIVIDUALS PROTESTING THEIR PROFESSIONALISM - OR LACK OF FUNDS - OR THAT THEY "ALREADY KNEW ALL OF THIS STUFF ANYWAY". NOT SURE WHAT SEAN CHARGES - I PROVIDED HIM WITH THE FILM - WHICH CAME TO ME VIA MY FRIEND STEVE RIPPON - BUT I DO NOT GET A CUT!

IF I CAN MANAGE TO DO IT I WILL POST A COUPLE OF CLIPS THAT ARE PERTINENT TO THE DISCUSSION.