Mid Mark Chart

[charlie]

Don't mean to hurt your feelings, but Petrov DOES NOT have all the answers, if he did, Isi would not have lost the last World Championships. Great coaches make adjustments to offset and tweek flaws during competition!!!

[dj]

hey PVstudent,

sorry, i asumme my asuptions went to far.. no disrepect for Petrov but if the problem was know i think it would have been fixed.

i know she was "out' even from he best jumps... she stretched.. she failed...

dj

[PVstudent]

Don't mean to hurt your feelings, but Petrov DOES NOT have all the answers, if he did, Isi would not have lost the last World Championships. Great coaches make adjustments to offset and tweek flaws during competition!!!

Charlie you are not hurting my feelings and I agree with you that Petrov does not have all the answers. But neither you nor DJ have stood in his shoes and shouldered coaching responsibility for Isinbayeva's World Championship performance at the arena and on the day in question. Neither of you can know what went on in Petrov's mind let alone know what instructions Isinbayeva received from him during the competition in question. Nor can you or DJ definatively state that Petrov was not aware of, or did not understand, Isinbayeva's problems on the day in question.

Acts of post hoc clairvoyance deludes many into the belief that the 20 / 20 vision of hindsight is capable of modifying a past event. Isinbayeva could not modify or appropriately adapt to the challenges on the day. She had input from her coach and is a very experienced and competent pole vaulter and was unable (not merely because of a single factor identified by DJ) to successfully correct her performance on the day. DJ of all people should know this sinceTully's performance at the Los Angeles Olympics, when the pressure was on, comes to mind as a similar situation!

In the complex of factors that give optimal performance in pole vault the coaching input is but one of the many influences on any particular performance. Emotional state, the occassion and the status that the vaulter attributes to it, freedom from injury or belief in capacity to handle injury, overtraining, competition conditions, etc., etc., all become factors and must be effectively handled by the coach and vaulter. Perfection is strived for but can it ever be attained in the real arena of competition?

I think the point I make is clear. Give the the athlete and the coach in question a break. They are the real life actors in all this!

Criticisms by mere spectators and disparaging comment about the coache's knowledge of the event and the athlete is taking cheap shots.

[altius]

dj - I promised i would stay away but cant help myself on this -anytime any one criticises Petrov I will respond - so on this I am with pv student.

First I suspect that Isinbayeva's problems have far more to do with long term psychological and emotional issues than anything to do with her technique -especially whether she uses your six step mid chart or not. However Bubka certainly did use a mid so why Petrov would change with her is incomprehensible.

Second - to suggest - or even imply -that Petrov does not know what he is doing is pretty arrogant. I really think you and anyone else who questions his ability should go and watch him work for a while - until you do so your comments on this issue cannot be taken seriously. You will find that he is meticulous in his planning and preparation. If he has a fault it is that he is too zealous, almost fanatical in his professionalism.

Third - I think you have always attached too much importance to your chart. I have never used it but over thirty years in OZ my athletes rarely if ever had problems at take off - we used a mid but it was not based on your chart. I doubt Parnov uses your chart either - I will ask him. However I have never questioned your opinion on the value of the chart except to note that there is no point using it if the athlete is still running with poor technique. Rusty Shealy might like to comment on this.

Fourth - Tim Mack realised he had to make adjustments after watching Markov take off at around 14' in Edmonton while he himself was well inside 13'.

Fifth - I have never challenged your undoubted experience but this might be the point to ask - what are the prs of the best male and female athletes you have COACHED over the past FIFTEEN years, not associated with nor given tips to, but actually coached 24/7 as the process demands. With your experience and reputation you would have attracted numbers of ambitious athletes - how have they progressed?

[superpipe]

Don't mean to completely side track the current conversation here, but the following comment by Altius is 100% dead on and I think most people trying to use DJ's mid-mark chart fail to realize this:

However I have never questioned your opinion on the value of the chart except to note that there is no point using it if the athlete is still running with poor technique.

I, myself, fell into this problem because my sprint mechanics were not correct. My strides used to be incomplete. I never performed the "triple extension" that is required for proper and efficient sprint technique. I spent the last year fixing my sprint mechanics and now I have a much better approach run, plant and take-off than ever. Me aside, most high school kids are not even ready to use the mid-mark chart since their sprint mechanics are usually so poor. I spend a great deal of time on sprint mechanics and the approach run for all of my high school kids. Can't do much in the vault if you can't run right.

Don't get me wrong, I think DJ's chart is a great resource and I do believe in it. The prerequisite is having proper sprint mechanics pretty well in check though.

[dj]

good morning,

i think instead of making this a "#$%$" match.. the question i should have "posed” in my last post should have been..

Do you know or have you ever observed Petrov using a 6 step “check” mark as a “tool” in his coaching..

The 6 step check is a “tool”, just like many other “tools” coaches have or should have available to them.

What you are missing (six step check) in it’s value is in these statements”

altius wrote: However I have never questioned your opinion on the value of the chart except to note that there is no point using it if the athlete is still running with poor technique.

by superpipe I, myself, fell into this problem because my sprint mechanics were not correct. My strides used to be incomplete. I never performed the "triple extension" that is required for proper and efficient sprint technique. I spent the last year fixing my sprint mechanics and now I have a much better approach run, plant and take-off than ever. Me aside, most high school kids are not even ready to use the mid-mark chart since their sprint mechanics are usually so poor. I spend a great deal of time on sprint mechanics and the approach run for all of my high school kids. Can't do much in the vault if you can't run right.

Don't get me wrong, I think DJ's chart is a great resource and I do believe in it. The prerequisite is having proper sprint mechanics pretty well in check though.

alan.. Fourth - Tim Mack realised he had to make adjustments after watching Markov take off at around 14' in Edmonton while he himself was well inside 13'.

Was this in 1995?? When Tim started his changes? I know Tim’s progression reasonably well.

Guys, again you either don’t understand the “whys” of the chart and how to use it or you’re ego is getting gin the way of common sense.

By this (you’re “denials”) you are hurting the event.

Alan if you’re only answer or defence is to make this personal!! What are you accomplishing?

You are holding the event back instead of moving it forward.

I want everyone that wants to run better on the approach to think about this from a “technical” stand point not a “personal” stand point.

Yes you need to practice “sprint/speed” mechanics.. WITH THE POLE.. and without the pole.

BUT… if you are “out” or “in” at 6 steps from the correct takeoff point you will NEVER run correctly even if you have practiced perfect sprint mechanics all your life..

Do you think that Petrov had not been teaching Isi “correct” mechanics from the first day he worked with her!!???

Not in your life time…

I live by everything that Petrov says from the pole carry position and first step..

Last question? Why would her run and plant “mechanics” be off on 4 of her 5 jumps, at two of the biggest meets of her life and the “common denominator” was very clear to the person (and to me of course) checking the “mids” for me at the meet… the successful jump was with a “X” (specific distance based on grip) 6 step “mid” and good posture and good accelerated run.. and the "bad" jump steps were 18 to 20 inches “out” at the 6 step mid with poor posture, poor running technique, poor plant technique???!!!

This is not about “personal” attacks.. this is about getting coaches and athletes to maximize their talent.. even world class coaches and athletes..

I did chose to put this post on my thread because I knew you (@#$%’s) would make it personal instead of trying to “show me” where I’m wrong.. you refuse to try it but still “refute it” based on “Vodoo, poppy cock and words that can’t be used on here..

You and your followers are the ones that are “losing”.. even Isi and Petrov, if they aren't willing to look at the 6 step as a great coaching, correct feed back tool.

dj

[dj]

hye

i just re-read.. the post..

holy crap!!!

"Blame the athlete" is not the answer.. any coach that blames the athlete is really not a coach!!!

a coaches job is to find the answers before and during the "big event"..

Tully's 1984 had nothing to do with "technical" issues or his inability to proform what we had corrected or what we were trying to correct over time.

it had to do with a calf cramp.. and only one attempt at 19 feet instead of three because of that cramp.. he had his standards on 60cm and just touched the bar on the way down.. i had suggested 55cm..

hind sight is 20/20 and makes a great "excuse", as is blaming the athlete.. at the end of the day you (a coach) have no one to blame but yourself for failure if you have not studied the "physics" and communicated the "message" to the athlete as to "why".. (this pretains to 1984 as to why i though 55cm and he though 60cm and my failure to convey the why before we were in that situation arose in the games)

i don't think Isi would ever (any world class talent) chose not to adjust.. would "chose" to hit a foot and a half "out" on the run... the great athletes know what "physics" feels like.. and the coach "blaming" them only tells you that the coach is wrong and hasn't figured it out, no matter what your credintials are...

and before you P$$$$$ back i have never heard Petrov blame the athlete.. so this is not a personal attack on him or Isi..

i have heard alan blame the athlete when he himself was "missing it", that's why i don't put much stock in his true ability as a coach.

dj

[master]

dj, I think you've gone off the deep end with that last post. It's time to take a deep breath.

[PVstudent]

DJ read my post again!

In the complex of factors that give optimal performance in pole vault the coaching input is but one of the many influences on any particular performance. Emotional state, the occassion and the status that the vaulter attributes to it, freedom from injury or belief in capacity to handle injury, overtraining, competition conditions, etc., etc., all become factors and must be effectively handled by the coach and vaulter.

MMMhhh ... can't see how this is blaming the athlete!

I mentioned Tully at the 1984 Olympics because from a mere spectator point of view his 3rd attempt in the jump to decide the gold or the silver medal was a run through after two very good yet failed attempts. Pierre Quinon had already failed his 3rd attempt. Tully followed with his 3rd attempt a run through! What does the spectator make of this? Too easy to say Tully psychologically capitulated to the pressure. The insider's viewpoint tells a very different story.

DJ your stated assessment of both Isinbayeva and Petrov may be right, but in all honesty how can you possibly know the insider story?

The facts are Tully ran through on his 3rd attempt and won Silver not Gold. Isinbayeva and Petrov did not produce the gold medal performance at the World Champs in Berlin 2009. Does that therefore entitle the reasonable "spectator" to conclude Tully "choked under pressure" or that Petrov was incompetent? These are judgement calls. To be fair, in either case, more facts of the matter need to be known to make this sort of judgement call.

I think the jury of PVP readers, if they are fair minded, will recognise your judgement call in regard to Petrov and his competence is wrong and amounts to little more than delivering " a hit below the belt".

[altius]

"i have heard alan blame the athlete when he himself was "missing it", that's why i don't put much stock in his true ability as a coach."

Now who is getting personal????

But I would love to know the specific example of your claim. But be careful because there were other folk around (Tim Larwyk, Tim Beach and Rick Baggett) on the only occasion you and I were ever in the same place at the same time coaching athletes -at Rusty Shealys camp at USC a few years ago.

dj I STILL RESPECT YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE - BUT I am waiting for the list of athletes you have COACHED in the part fifteen years!

Oh and since Tim Mack is obviously a friend of yours, ask him yourself what impact his seeing Markov taking off outside 14' had on him - that was in 2001 not 1995.

Incidentally the list of young athletes I coached between 1986 and 2004 is in BTB2. In every case but three - Tim Foster, Steve Wilson and Emma Draisey -I was the first person to show them how to hold a pole and the only person to teach them to vault. You will note that in BTB I never mentioned an eight month association with Victor Chystiakov or Tatiana Grigorieva because although I provided technical advice, I did not COACH them. Nor have I ever claimed credit for Simon Arkell's performances even though he himself always calls me coach. What I have said is that if I had known what I was doing when I taught him to vault (pre Petrov) he would have jumped 6.00m.

[rainbowgirl28]

Looks like it is time for this thread to rest for awhile.

[dj]

Becca please in fairness let me at least answer

Pvp Good morning,

Typical P#$%$ contest… sling mud and P** until your opponent doesn’t remember what the point was/is…

Kinda’ like a saying we have down here in Gator country.. I think it might have come from Doug Dickey, Florida football coach in the 70’s, about his defense.

“When your up to your a** in alligators it’s hard to remember that your initial objective was to drain the swamp!”

Alan - First I suspect that Isinbayeva's problems have far more to do with long term psychological and emotional issues than anything to do with her technique -especially whether she uses your six step mid chart or not. However Bubka certainly did use a mid so why Petrov would change with her is incomprehensible.

“long term psychological and emotional issues”… sounds like blaming the athlete to me!

I have learned one important lesson while working with or observing athletes like Tully, Bell, Roberts, Mack..etc..and pole vaulters in general (who are labelled crazy way to often) they only “lose it” when the “feed back” is wrong according to physics. You ever been around thoroughbred horses? Pay attention.. they will let you know when you are training them wrong or trying to force them to do something that doesn’t compute. With horses you can’t get in a p@#$%$ match and get your (the coach) way. They will do what is right. You “force” the world class talent away from what’s “right” and make them believe their “gut” is wrong and you, the coach, has created the problem. Same thing happens when you “force” them onto a pole that will not allow them to use the talent and “feel” they have.. makes them crazy and unpredictable and makes them “second” guess themselves all the time.

Alan I won’t “lay my resume’ beside yours”.. you win, point yours I also cannot and will not take any credit for Tim Mack’s successes. I will take credit for trying to get he and “B” to use the 6 step mark as an “absolute” reference to being “on” and in the right position to plant and takeoff correctly.

What continues to frustrate me about you is your either lack of understanding of the significance of that mark or your refusal to address it from either ego or lack of knowledge.

On Isi’s four jumps at the world championships. Prelim.. x mid = great jump, big air over the bar…

Final .. three failed attempts .. each one 18 or more inches out from the prelim jump.. all failed.. under more than normal.. slowing at the takeoff.. no pole speed…

I fail to see why those facts have to become a personal attack! And I fail to understand why you want to have “selective intelligents!”

I thought we all understood that speed is a product of stride length and stride frequency, and the posture that goes with it. You stretch you lose posture.. you stretch with a pole in your hand you have no way of getting your balance or posture back because when you stretched you “moved” (swung) the pole in a way that the action will perpetuate itself step for step into a late, low, under takeoff.

Isi had to increase her stride length by three inches for each of the last 6 steps to be “on” here “normal” takeoff point, and if she “stretched” under to boot, each stride was more than + 3 inches. Bolt’s average stride length over his opponents was 2 inches or he beat them by 86 inches at the finish! How can someone with a pole in their hand stretch this much and expect to plant, takeoff and jump even close to the same or at their best???

Alan - Third - I think you have always attached too much importance to your chart. I have never used it………….

Here’s the problem… if you have never “monitored” or used it “correctly” How can I be placing “to much” emphasis on?

Honestly your book may be good work, I haven’t read it, parts of the first until the binding feel apart. If it is to be called the “pole vault bible” it will need to add in the 6 step check point to remotely obtain the level of Wilbur Ross’s “Hurdlers Bible”. I lived by that work.. a 5-9 white guy ran 14.1, more than once over the 42 inch barriers from that work… way, way ahead of it’s time.. if you are going to produce a “life time best” for pole vault include all the variables.

Right now I’m doing ok with my experience and Petrov’s “Technique Training In Pole Vaulting.”

Tim and others have know from the first day they vaulted that the farther you were out (to a point) based on grip, posture, speed and “impulse” the higher you should jump. The 14’ indicator of Markov is just a “number”. It could actually be under fro some and “out” for some.. to far out depending on other variables.

It’s the “how” you get there (Take Off) and what you do “impulse” that matters.

Petrov – Acceleration is the ability to reach the maximum of controllable speed within a certain distance.
An important feature of the acceleration is its increment value and the ability to keep a certain speed on a certain running distance.
Dj note… What I have said with my “MID” chart! Two points here… 1. stride length is speed based.. the further out your “MID” the faster you had better be running!! 2. Acceleration and it’s increase in stride length is is proportionate (increment value) but based on how fast you are running.
Acceleration as an element of the pole vault has its own components which are interrelated and which determine the vaulter’s activity during acceleration. Any changes or disturbances in any of the components will retard the speed and efficiency of the acceleration

The length of the strides should not change abruptly. The 2nd to last step is longer than the last one by 10-20cm (optional)

This part is covered in 6 strides and equals to 17.00 – 17.50 m

The pole must be smoothly transferred to the plant position when the vertical take-off plane is crossed. The technically correct movement demonstrates the right acceleration of the pole by the moment the vaulter reaches the vertical take-off plane.
McGinnis – 1987.. about Bubka science, mirrors Petrov just with a little different verbiage (s)?
His step lengths and velocities were similar to those of other elite vaulters. His free leg (right) did swing through high though.
Bubka’s plant did have some outstanding characteristics. The vertical extension of the plant arm was almost 100%. The toes of his left foot were almost directly beneath his top handgrip at this instant and his step was almost 14 and a half feet away from the box. The timing of the pole plant was also significant. Bubka’s pole hit the back of the box during the second half of his takeoff foot support phase, .07sec after his foot touched the ground. His right leg swinged (swung) up quite high.

[/quote]

It’s not the distance, exactly, that is of most importance.. it’s the action..

The distance and action is “controlled” … has a 100% correlation to speed, posture, technique and takeoff point) by where you are 6 steps from the Takeoff.. how this continues to be argued and disputed still, after spending too much time writing this, boggles my mind..

If world wide we embraced this issue (and we don’t need to “over emphasize the mark/chart.. just check you as “feedback” no more or no less than the pole grip and carry, the posture, the takeoff point…) we would have 6 vaulters close to world record heights…

You will never be right/correct for “speed and position” if you are not within a very small range, according to the individual speed ability of the vaulter, of the correct 6 step mark for you.

PVstudent.. I’m not going to argue or dispute anything you have said.. I apologies for seemingly hurting someone’s feelings, ego or taking a “cheap shot”, but if I have to “inflame” the situation to get people to look past Alan’s “authority” (which I don’t suspect Petrov even concerns or supports.. there I go again ASSUME.. making an a** out of U (alan) and ME.. sorry) I have not tried to “second guess” anyone.. Mannerisms and what happens “after” and “error” speaks for itself..

There is no doubt that “pressure” played into Tully’s cramps. Quinon had made the 18-10 so Tully was 2nd if he made it or not. He passed to 19 to try and win and he knew he had one good short because of the cramps. He though 60cm on the jump because he was going to “put everything into that jump and thought he need the extra 5cm to not hit it going up. I though 55cm because of the same reasons but with the “pressure” he would surly step a little “under” taking him more vertical. After the fact I hated to admit I was right. But he still got the silver and wasn’t ranked ahead of Earl, Quinon or Vignieron before the trials, which would mean no medal chance under extreme conditions in the LA coliseum.


Got to put it to rest for now

dj