Pole Vault Manifesto

[volteur]

oops

[volteur]

'Ive scoured Bubka's round table responses from Jamaica and i can't find anywhere he is mentioning or even alluding to a pre-jump. Can you point out where? Following is a link to a transcript"

And I told you that you wont find it in that transcript - which was incomplete - go to page 243 -the answer is there. If you do not do that I cannot waste anymore time on this - Remember i have been there before with folk who relied on that transcript -which is why I stated on P243 in precise detail what the first question was in that session - and what the answer was. But I repeat again that neither he nor Petrov ever called what he described there a "pre jump" - that was my interpretation of what both Vitali told me in 86 and what Sergei said in Jamaica - in an attrempt to clarify the difference between what folk believed to be a free take off and what I believed to be its logical extension.

Unfortunately the next step for you is to read 243 -and if you have already made up your mind on this - to call me a liar. The words make it very clear that there was no misunderstanding. As the Chinese proverb states "The beginning of wisdom is when things are given their proper names" . That is what I have tried to do- As i am now trying to do with that much abused word 'skill'.

As i await my chance to get a copy of BTB2 i guess i will follow up on DJ and explain myself more.

I think what you are coining as the pre-jump is in fact that ideal 'gap' we are talking about. It is an ideal, an optimal situation when this 'gap' is correct. Make it too large or too little and we are not in an optimal situation in either case.

I think the optimal situation is a timing one. Find the correct 'zero' lag timing and the free takeoff works. Miss that timing and we have too early a takeoff or too late a one.

"Lateness' is the endemic problem a vaulter faces. Late to plant, late to takeoff and late to pull-push. So a coach of the vault sees this all the time and i guess in an intelligent mind such as you have Altius it gets quite annoying. Hence the efforts of the coach to have the athlete become 'earlier and earlier' in the timing. Eventually this process can lead to correct timing, however, if it is emphasised too much it will lead to an early plant instead of a correctly timed one. Early plants lead to over striding (ie striking the ground in front of ones center of mass (the combined one - body and pole) which leads to deceleration.

I have had the same experience as your's dj and the only reason i persisted so long in that early takeoff folly was i had speed such as yourself and could 'get away' with it longer than the less speedy vaulters. A valuable lesson but also as waste of time in retrospect.

In terms of upspringing this follows the same situation as a late plant and takeoff for the coach. How to get the athlete who takes off flat to gain more height. Not by springing more, by having better posture.

If postural extension is complete prior to takeoff half of the job is already done. If the athlete then runs off into full extension the job is complete. Actually attempting to upspring at takeoff leads to the same situation as in triple jump. The hop is too high and the step suffers the consequences. In vault the takeoff can look higher but the rest of the vault suffers. The athlete already gets a fair amount of height without attempting to, just look at how high the run-off takeoff put Edwards in his WR jumps. Once the running posture and the takeoff position show the correct amount of extension the trick is not not lose any of this extension after takeoff. Notice Bubka often has his right arm still slightly bent during takeoff sometimes yet immediately after takeoff it is pulled straight by the pole. Yet even though his right arm was bent his posture was extended in readiness. Postural extension instead of unspringing. It allows more speed from the runway to be converted.

cheers

[dj]

good morning

i believe i have answered those questions many times.. correctly..

as has petrov, kochel and others..

dj

[dj]

hello

If postural extension is complete prior to takeoff half of the job is already done. If the athlete then runs off into full extension the job is complete. Actually attempting to upspring at takeoff leads to the same situation as in triple jump. The hop is too high and the step suffers the consequences. In vault the takeoff can look higher but the rest of the vault suffers. The athlete already gets a fair amount of height without attempting to, just look at how high the run-off takeoff put Edwards in his WR jumps. Once the running posture and the takeoff position show the correct amount of extension the trick is not not lose any of this extension after takeoff. Notice Bubka often has his right arm still slightly bent during takeoff sometimes yet immediately after takeoff it is pulled straight by the pole. Yet even though his right arm was bent his posture was extended in readiness. Postural extension instead of unspringing. It allows more speed from the runway to be converted.

i believe this has said again, correctly, what a few great coaches have said before us, including petrov..

and to add .. my words.. we need and up "impluse" as opposed to a "JUMP" and "ON" as opposed to "way out" or "under".

dj

[volteur]

Dj, i see the 'up impulse' as all that is required to get one to full extension. Is this true? If it is i really like the term.

Even though the vaulter could add 'extra' 'up impulse' or vertical lift at takeoff to do so would be counterproductive.

And ON, lets all get our athletes to be on instead of some other personal idea.

Agapit (it's almost like i have to get a really good question or something now),

great model and excellent aspect on auto feedback. To have drills that provide for this will one day do you out of a job (as a coach) except to write a book (it could be the beginning of automation in pole vaulting!)

great stuff (now that i've looked around this thread and read it)

One question. Is the pulling force running through the cord length of the pole or along it's outer edge? Or both?

ps the pole climb is excellent thanks

[master]

One question. Is the pulling force running through the cord length of the pole or along it's outer edge? Or both?

You'll have to clarify this (at least for me to understand).

- master

[powerplant42]

So far I'm understanding Milton's "Paradise Lost" better than some of volteurs posts... but then again, I AM an AP/GT student... ... volteur, seriously, just try to say things as bluntly as you can, for everyone's sake.

[altius]

There is a major difference between the triple jump and the vault. The triple jumper is trying to ensure that they do not lose speed through the three phases, so keeps the first phase flat to maintain their initial velocity for as long as possible - they do indeed run off the board and do not spring up. The pole vaulter on the other hand must redirect the velocity of the run up at take off - this requires an up spring.

Since in his major study Dr. Jean Claude Perrin - one of the two great French coaches - found a .86 correlation between the performance of pole vaulters and their long jump I suggest that you use examples from the long jump rather than the triple. A triole jump emphasis will have you taking off too flat.

Have you read Ganslen? What does he - along with the other great stiff pole vaulters - say about the take off? Of course that question is redundant if one believes that the vaulter should try to bend the pole at take off.

[dj]

hello

and where? did anyone in this thread say they believed the "vaulter should try to bend the pole at take off."

dj

[volteur]

sorry, how do i say it otherwise? If there is a pulling action after takeoff i assume the force of that pull is in a specific direction. I'm wondering what that specific direction is. Where is one applying the force?

[golfdane]

and to add .. my words.. we need and up "impluse" as opposed to a "JUMP" and "ON" as opposed to "way out" or "under".

dj

How on earth do we create an "up impulse", if not by jumping? IMO, are we better served by giving away a little speed and create a lift of the CG. IOW, jump. And this jump should (IMO) be finished (toes leaving ground) no later than when the pole hits the back of the box (but not that far out, as I feel Volteur is trying to pin on the term pre-jump (which essentially is the jump being finished prior to the pole being loaded)).

Sure, non of this matters greatly, if the postural positions are bad.

[volteur]

here is a minor up impulse from Johnathon Edwards. If you freeze frame it around 7 seconds you can see how high he is during the hop. I don't know if pole vault wants even this much height.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4mBR2-b ... re=related

The point is that pole vault and triple jump are similar in that neither wants maximum air time. They both want to allow for readiness so as to power the next phase, whether that being a step or a pull-push. If the vault takeoff is treated like a long jump takeoff then there is no next phase only a landing. To use agapits words all that can remain after such a takeoff is a passive phase before landing. Vault needs a series of active phases.

I think maximising your jump at pole vault takeoff is a different thing from optimising it.