Pole Vault Manifesto

[volteur]

Thanks Golfdane i had some to feel the pre-jump was his term. So the pre-jump is Altius' interpretation of Petrov's free takeoff. Agapit has another interpretation and i sense they are the two resident experts here so have i landed in the middle of a permanent disagreement over what the free takeoff really means?

[altius]

"so have i landed in the middle of a permanent disagreement over what the free takeoff really means?"

You must be a lawyer by trade! You seem to want to dispute for the sake of disputing. Read 243 before you write any more on this topic - all will be clear - or write YOUR own manifesto.

Also you may have missed the fact that Roman and I have been great friends since 1991 and that in January of this year we went skiing in France together.

[volteur]

No no Altius i saw you said Roman used to live with you so i assumed a friendship. I didn't assume you were actual enemies i just thought there is this one point of disagreement, that's all.

A manifesto you say i should write? It sounds so grand. I just prefer to have a web of interconnecting ideas. Maybe i could come out with a minifesto? A manifesto might have to wait till i age and gain more experience.

All i really asked (and i've asked you quite a few questions now, all unanswered) is what is the intention behind your 'pre-jump'? I think i am aware to some degree of what Petrov wants with his free takeoff and i was hoping to make a direct comparison.

How about it?

ps does 243 a page reference for BTB2? All i have is BTB1 so is there a page reference for that book i could check?

[altius]

243 is the page reference for BTB 2 -as I indicated I no longer have any copies of BTB1 -so cannot give you the reference in that book. But i say again all will be revealed on page 243. However while in essence the free take off has many advantages -especially when compared to what the vast majority of vaulters actually do - a pre jump brings another advantage- as Bubka himself stated - that you can increase the pole ground angle. My extrapolation is that a free take off is a failed pre jump - take that or leave it. It is all there in BTB2 with the calculations which indicate that this is what happened on at least one of the few jumps in which as Bubka stated 'he had been able to do it a few times'. But unless you read the context of his response you will understand nothing.

You re lucky to get any response from me - but I need a break from trying to redefine the nature of skilled play in ball games. But do not go there.

[volteur]

thankfully i am a lucky person Altius!

I've scoured Bubka's round table responses from Jamaica and i can't find anywhere he is mentioning or even alluding to a pre-jump. Can you point out where? Following is a link to a transcript

http://www.neovault.com/articles_bubka_roundtable.asp

[vault3rb0y]

A free take off and pre jump means nothing if your hands are not in the right place and doing the right thing. The whole point of a pre/free jump (whatever you guys decide on when you are done making up words, merriam and webster) is to minimize the impact of the pole in the back of the box, because that is huge energy lost.

Tim McMichael taught me that in Forney TX, when he said Joe Dial could tell when he had a good jump, because his pole tip made almost no sound when it hit the box and the cap did not get jammed or twisted like some do. Joe would cushion the pole tip in the back of the box, and with pressure of his hands was able to transfer nearly all his runway speed into the box. Some coaches emphasize a passive bottom arm to assimilate stiff polers, but i disagree. Without upward pressure right at take off, your pole tip will get jammed into the box, and energy will be lost into the back of the box and into your hands. But i dont mean to get off topic.

Many coaches I see seem to be content with their athletes leaving the ground in a place that would give them a free take off (lets say 12'6" for elite HS pole vaulters) but dont give as much emphasis to your hand position. I think it is MORE important, because you can leave the ground wherever you want, and if you jam the pole into the box, you might as well leave the ground at 9'6". At NIN i left the ground around 11'-11'6" from watching video, 12' on my best jumps. My mid chart would have me leaving around 12'6" holding at 14'6", but the way i "comfort" the pole in the box and push up, and let my hands come back behind my head if need be, to still achieve a "free-er" takeoff, i still manage some pretty smooth looking jumps- granted that i am working on leaving the ground with my top hand over my head, and THEN moving it slightly behind my head to allow the most energy possible to go from my take off into the pole.

So my definition of a "free" take-off, would be more of a "smooth" take-off, although that may be misleading to some. It has more to do with transfering all your energy into the pole from take-off without losing it into the box or into your hands, than it does with simply leaving the ground at the right place.

Volteur- i always had assumptions about the angles you strive for, they may not be right. In an ideal world, you could jump with ALL your run-up speed directly at the bar. Thats not going to happen, and neither will 30 degrees, but there has got to be a happy medium between sacrificing run-up speed and take off angle, and i believe it depends on the person. People like bubka could maximize run-up speed AND angle at the right time because he had the ability to. Someone like Joe Dial would run full speed and purposely go at a low angle, because he knew the benefits (FOR HIM!!!) of a higher take off angle would not outwiegh the sacrificing runway speed he could use. I have played around with controlling my run, sacrificing a miniscule amount of run-way speed for a higher and controlled take off angle, and had better results than trying to run full-speed and having less control at the box. I will stick with that for now, because it is giving me consistent jumps (and an excuse for not running as fast as other high 16 jumpers!). On a side note, i thought long jumpers strive for a 45 degree angle? Ideally that would get them the farthest, but just like PV, i dont think they can realistically run fast and still jump at that angle. Its not as important as how high an angle you actually have as it is how high you are striving for.

...And yes, us Arkansans know a thing or two about pole vault, even if we aren't all posting in this forum! I learned almost all i know from 1 guy in the past 2 years, and his knowledge is given in practice not on the forums, the way it should be. So any praise you give me should go right to him as well, I am just trying to learn all i can to (possibly) be the best coach i can someday!

[dj]

vault3rb0y

my comments are truly sincere... and i have the greatest respect for morry and what he has done.......


dj

ps.. i'll say it again to those that don't seem to be listening.. the angle at takeoff is created by the stiffnes of the pole.... not by an attempt to jump!!

"jumping" UP is not the way to plant and take-off.. nothing i have read in petrov's papers say you JUMP in the way it has been presented into pole vaulting!

[vault3rb0y]

I agree the pole creates the actual angle when you leave the ground, combined with the stiffness and length of pole. But take away the pole in your hands, and i dont think you take away ALL angle you have when you leave the ground. We have all seen vaulters that look like they jump INTO the vault, and other vaulters that jump at such a high angle, that even on a soft pole holding high, there is noticeably less bend than other vaulters. Thats the angle i talk about, not the angle the pole makes for you, although that is extremely important as well, i feel the angle just a vaulter makes for themselves is a factor in determining that vaulter-pole angle off the ground. It would be a hard thing to calculate though, unless we can measure the angle of vault in pre-jump before the pole hits the back.

[altius]

'Ive scoured Bubka's round table responses from Jamaica and i can't find anywhere he is mentioning or even alluding to a pre-jump. Can you point out where? Following is a link to a transcript"

And I told you that you wont find it in that transcript - which was incomplete - go to page 243 -the answer is there. If you do not do that I cannot waste anymore time on this - Remember i have been there before with folk who relied on that transcript -which is why I stated on P243 in precise detail what the first question was in that session - and what the answer was. But I repeat again that neither he nor Petrov ever called what he described there a "pre jump" - that was my interpretation of what both Vitali told me in 86 and what Sergei said in Jamaica - in an attrempt to clarify the difference between what folk believed to be a free take off and what I believed to be its logical extension.

Unfortunately the next step for you is to read 243 -and if you have already made up your mind on this - to call me a liar. The words make it very clear that there was no misunderstanding. As the Chinese proverb states "The beginning of wisdom is when things are given their proper names" . That is what I have tried to do- As i am now trying to do with that much abused word 'skill'.

[altius]

dj - Do you believe that the great 'stiff' pole vaulters JUMPED? If in your opinion, they did not JUMP/SPRING UP, what was their emphasis at take off?

[dj]

hello ;- )

i do not believe the 'JUMP UP" is to the extend that it is being described.. by you and many others.. and we are working against the correct way to vault by creating more than it is...

yes there needs to be and "UP" impulse and a penultimate step as described by petrov...

dj

ps... and the only thing i can imagine your pre-jump to be would be the penultimate..

pss..i was part of an experiment in 1964/65 to "Jump" onto the pole by taking off a foot out... and i'm the only one of our test pilots that could do it and "live" to tell about it... so i am semi aware of what takes place first hand.. i could do it, because i was extremely fast... and possibly could have done something with the "idea" if i had had enough poles, a big enough pit..(because i commonly went over the pit when i hit it right because i didn’t have enough grip), or if i had foam pits and enough healthy body parts.

pssss...i can tell you leaping a foot off the ground and a foot out is not correct... although the faster you are the easier it is to takeoff “way outâ€

[altius]

dj -This was the question. Do you believe that the great 'stiff' pole vaulters JUMPED? If in your opinion, they did not JUMP/SPRING UP, what was their emphasis at take off?

Secondly I realise that you believe I am wrong to emphasise an upspringing take off - but what do you believe the emphasis SHOULD be for an elite modern vaulter?

Thanks.