Speed or Strength?

[AVC Coach]

OK, the point I was trying to make about the positions is....Yes, you need to hit them, but I don't think that is enough. You need to hit those positions, moving through each phase as quickly and smoothly as possible, thus ADDING energy to the system.

As Blakedow is trying to convince me, you just need to run fast, get your plant up and hit those positions and what ever speed you generated on the runway will just have to do. According to that theory, the pole is an "elevator" taking you for a ride. I just don't buy into that.

Blakedow, I'm sure you add energy to your vault. You're a 15'6" jumper and you use a 14' pole. You have to be adding energy and just not realizing it.

Oh, and about the Bubka thing. I can't think of one.

[vault3rb0y]

I am convinced we add energy into the vault, simply because of an experiment you can do on our own while jumping. Take a Run and take off.... holding the drive knee up and keeping your hands high. Then just land in the pit in that split position. Now take that same run and swing on it, and notice how much farther you end up in the pit. Where did the energy come from?? You might argue there are other variables like being more warmed up or faster the second run.... but i have seen it proved on a larger scale. Maybe someone can explain to me how it always seems the more and faster you swing, the farther you end up in the pit?

[ADTF Academy]

I am convinced we add energy into the vault, simply because of an experiment you can do on our own while jumping. Take a Run and take off.... holding the drive knee up and keeping your hands high. Then just land in the pit in that split position. Now take that same run and swing on it, and notice how much farther you end up in the pit. Where did the energy come from?? You might argue there are other variables like being more warmed up or faster the second run.... but i have seen it proved on a larger scale. Maybe someone can explain to me how it always seems the more and faster you swing, the farther you end up in the pit?

Before I make a point I want to mention that I do feel you can add energy into the vault. However, whats more important adding energy to lose energy or maintaining maximal energy. Thats all I am saying.

Vault Boy


Here is a question for you. I will agree with you but. When you are performing a hold drill or just riding the pole into the pit. Are you in a position to receive the energy you put into the pole. NO. When you swing through to inversion you put yourself into a position to receive the energy you put into the pole. This example of yours is not really a great one to explain additional energy put into the pole. It is more of an example of how to use and show that there is hiding energy applied in the pole at takeoff. That if you can swing to the right position it will launch you deep if the pole over rotates or high if your on the right pole.

[vault3rb0y]

Quite possibly... i agree some of the energy, even a large amount, may be obsorbed into your arms when you dont swing. But as long as we agree that some energy can be transfered from the centrifical (or centripital.... not gonna review my physics books) force of your swing into the pole, loading it more. There are many ways of explaining that, but as long as its recodnized i think it should be applied to ones training.... to swing as fast as you can... at the correct time, of course. Any other way someone chooses to phrase that is just "Po(tay)toe"..... "po(tot)oe".

[blakedow]

A fast swing isnt to put energy into the pole, it is to make sure that you catch the energy that you put into it... The only time you can "load the pole" is in your take off...

AVC Coach, I have to respectfully disagree with you... You say that you have to make quick, smooth motions in each phase to "ADD" energy, but isnt the point of quick and smooth motions to hit the correct positions without letting any energy leave your vault?? Yes, I can jump 15'6" on a 14' pole, and I am 100% convinced that I never add energy into the pole once I leave the ground... The pole isnt like an elevator... The pole isnt a slingshot... The idea of loading the pole with "energy" is bending the pole effectively so that you can roll the highest possible grip... For example, look at some old videos of stiff pole vaulting, and notice that they are able to jump well above their handgrip... The reason Bubka has been the most successful vaulter in the world is because he incorporated this idea that the pole isnt throwing him necessarily, but he is using the bent pole to grip as high as possible so he can obtain a higher bar... Some people still think the most effective way to vault is to bend the crap out of a pole and let it throw you, but this method has led to great inconsistency in the sport and large amounts of injuries...

And about Bubka's speed/strength... Bubka NEVER RAN A 10.2!!! ITS A MYTH!!! Galina Bukharina, former Russian National Coach and current head coach of Texas State, can attest to this fact... It wasnt that he was blazing fast, it was that he ran so that he could effectively transfer all the energy from his run up into his takeoff...Yes, he was fast... Yes, there have been faster vaulters (I would say that Keenan King was easily faster)... As far as strength, Hartwig, LoJo, and probably many other American vaulters that are too many to name are stronger...

I'm not being defensive, just trying to make sure that people understand what I'm talking about... I apologize for not being more clear earlier...

[vault3rb0y]

The reason bubka was so successful was his ideal body type, dedication, knowledge of the vault and his ability to apply his knowledge of the vault into his own vaulting.... i believe. I agree with you on this statement

A fast swing isnt to put energy into the pole, it is to make sure that you catch the energy that you put into it

Potatoe, Po(tot)oe.... using any energy available to help load the pole.

The only time you can "load the pole" is in your take off...

i dont understand, because i notice when someone swings on a pole that it is loaded even more... and that comes after the take off. Can you help explain that one to me? im just a stupid high school jumper here

[blakedow]

The reason bubka was so successful was his ideal body type, dedication, knowledge of the vault and his ability to apply his knowledge of the vault into his own vaulting.... i believe. I agree with you on this statement

A fast swing isnt to put energy into the pole, it is to make sure that you catch the energy that you put into it

Potatoe, Po(tot)oe.... using any energy available to help load the pole.

The only time you can "load the pole" is in your take off...

i dont understand, because i notice when someone swings on a pole that it is loaded even more... and that comes after the take off. Can you help explain that one to me? im just a stupid high school jumper here

First off, how can you tell that the pole is "loaded" more??? Unless you have a device that calculates newtons in a moving pole, this simply isnt possible... Secondly, just because the pole is bending more doesnt mean that there is more energy... Thirdly, if you are doing anything in your swing to create more bend in the pole then that is probably a bad thing according to my previous statement... The purpose of a long, straight trail leg is not to get you into the pit, it is to get upside down as quickly as possible...

Sorry if this comes off as a little mean, it isnt the intention...

[vault3rb0y]

thats just not how ive been taught by all my coaches, so it comes off a little weird to me. As long as im still jumping high i wont worry about it... ill just do what my coaches say.

[AVC Coach]

A fast swing isnt to put energy into the pole, it is to make sure that you catch the energy that you put into it... The only time you can "load the pole" is in your take off...

OK, I understand where you're coming from now. I wasn't suggesting that you added energy to the pole, just the vault itself. The pole is going to bend and have a maximum limit to it's speed of recoil. I'm just saying that you want to do what it takes to match up with that speed of recoil, which is what I interpret as adding energy to the system (not the pole). Granted several other factors come into play to allow you to do that, but this is the point I'm trying focus on right now.

The stiff polers where able to clear incredible heights over their grips because they were swinging fast and pulling like apes, keeping their bodies in motion. We do have an advantage over them with the bending poles, which allow us to hold higher, but those same principles should still apply.

[achtungpv]

A fast swing isnt to put energy into the pole, it is to make sure that you catch the energy that you put into it...

I agree with this. Your swing "uses" energy generated from your run...otherwise you're just hanging dead weight. When you swing correctly you may feel like you're adding energy, but you're probably more effectively utilizing the energy already in the pole-vaulter system than when there are inefficiencies in your technique.

[master]

A fast swing isnt to put energy into the pole, it is to make sure that you catch the energy that you put into it... The only time you can "load the pole" is in your take off...

If this is true, please explain how a gymnast can jump up and grab a horizontal bar, lift his feet in front of him to start a small swing and then with each successive swing go higher until he can go over the top. It seems obvious to me the energy to get his body over the top resulted from the proper execution and timing of a good whip-swing (one legged or two).

- master

[PVstudent]

Good example Master!

The muscular work done by the vaulter can and does indeed impart energy from the "kick - whip - swing" in the first phase of the pole support after the takeoff. When the transfer of the angular momentum from the swinging lower limb is timed and coordinated with a pelvic roll up towards the sternum, some energy is put into maintaining the pole bend for a fractionally longer time duration before pole recoil. The timing, if done correctly, changes the primary axis of rotation of the vaulter from about the top hand to the shoulders and conserves the vaulter's angular momentum and is observed externally as an increase in angular velocity about this axis. The benefit is that the vaulter's hips are level with, or higher, than the vaulter's shoulders as the pole recoil (pole support second phase) starts.

The tangential velocity and the long leg sweep also helps to maintain the magnitude of the horizontal velocity of the centre of mass of the vaulter -pole system about the pole tip axis located in the box. This has two benefits :
(1) provides continuing penetration towards the pads as and after the pole swings laterally
(2) enables the vaulter to continue to do work against the pole during the recoil by maintaining fast rotation, hence exerting prolonged pole compression (though diminshing) force due to the centripetal forces that produce the whole body inversion.

Run controllably fast, spring upwards, swing and spiral turn around the pole appear to be simple ingredients required to to achieve projection height and bar clearance. The advice to the vaulter therefore is continue to work throughout the pole phase to optimize the energy transfers that take place.

Remember to get energy out you must put energy into the sytem. The laws of entropy tell us that even when you do this there will inefficiencies. Since the pole is connected to the earth and the vaulter is connected to the pole, it must be possible for the vaulter to perform useful
work during the pole support phase of any vault!