We are doomed. Repent and ask for forgiveness.

[volteur]

is not the bottom arm mostly doing an isometric action at takeoff?

you could swing faster by becoming more clotheslined but that isn't the best option. Increased penetration through the takeoff would create a faster swing. The further the C of G is ahead of the R hand and L foot (R handed vaulter) the greater the swing potential. The better the ability to pull through the left arm also. The more free the takeoff.

[Tim McMichael]

So, what is wrong with telling young vaulters to resist/bend the pole with the left arm to achieve a bigger bend and delay/slowdown the body from swinging trough too early?

It is wrong because

A. the bottom arm will only get in the way if this is a vaulter's concept of how it works and:

B. If everything is set up properly in the run and takeoff you cannot swing too early. The faster you swing the more the pole will "move" because of the pressure applied through the top arm.

However, if the bottom arm is not on the pole none of this will happen.

It's simple column physics, Roman. Energy applied down the length of a column will not collapse it until some force, however small, begins the process of bending it.

Obviously, It was a trick question. If you agree that the bottom arm only gets in the way... and in the proper run up and takeoff one cannot swing too early, so what you suggest left arm should be doing if not resisting (getting in the way)?

And how do you swing faster?

The bottom arm first applies the minimal amount of pressure necessary to cause the pole to bend. This should happen without the athlete's conscious awareness or effort; it should be the result of proper arm action and position during the plant. The elbow of the bottom arm should be bent slightly to the side and not facing forward, and both arms must be fully extended before the pole contacts the back of the box. If these actions are done correctly the bottom arm will play its part in beginning the bend of the pole without getting in the way of the jump, allowing the bottom hand to move freely back to a position just above the valuter's head with the elbow bent to the side. The amount that the arm is bent is a style difference that has little effect on the ultimate potential of the jump and is largely a factor of shoulder flexibility, grip width and the athlete's instinctive awareness of the position it must be in to take maximum pressure on the top hand. Then the bottom arm should pull on the pole as forcefully as possible, and this effort should continue throughout the vault. This pulling action should begin immediately after the completion of the takeoff when the trail leg has reached the limit of its backward movement. Although the time involved in this process is fractional the timing can be exact because the action is anticipated and, therefore, involves no reaction time.

The earlier and more forceful this pulling action is, the faster the swing will be. At the completion of the takeoff, the body is in a forced stretch position, and the pulling action of the bottom arm facilitates the rebound out of this position that constitutes the swing. The reason the bottom arm is the focus of the pulling action is because the top arm is already taking maximal pressure due to the forces generated in the approach and plant, and more conscious effort must be put into engaging the bottom arm in this process. With a primarily top arm pull, the pole bends a little more and penetrates a little more, but the swing is slower and it is more difficult to get tight to the pole during the inversion. With a primarily bottom arm pull the swing is faster and the inversion tighter to the pole, leading to increased height in spite of less bend and penetration. Thus, the action of the bottom arm and swing speed are related positively to one another.

There are, however, other factors involved that cannot be neglected. An athlete with a less than optimal approach and takeoff may come to serious harm by pulling their hips past the pole when they are in no position for this action to add power to the jump. This kind of thing should probably be saved for the end of the learning process and not the beginning.

Also, this explanation is far from complete, as is my understanding. An entire chapter could be written on the action of the bottom arm and how it relates to the rest of the vault. This is the best I can do in a limited amount of time.

Does this answer your question as to how the bottom arm plays a role in bending the pole without getting in the way?

[golfdane]

I think the point is: Do not tell the athletes, that the objective of the correct bottom hand action is to bend the pole. It might give a wrong impression, that eventually leads to exaggeration (blocking).
Sure, the correct arm action at take-off helps initiating the bend, but since that is only a beneficial side-effect that shouldn't be exaggerated, should it not be pointed out as being the reason for it. Bending will happen as a result of a proper take-off (where you push the pole towards vertical with both hands), but the objective is to move the pole/vaulter system forward and UP. You said it yourself, Tim: Move the pole forward.... (which is why stiff poling is so beneficial).

Any modern pole does not act as a perfect column. Force applied directly at the top WILL bend the pole (done whenever poles are tested on the factory) due to the construction of the pole. Bamboo and steel acts very differently and in comparison to modern day poles very unpredictable when bent. The very reason why vaulters sought the stiffest poles then. You knew how to cope with the stiff pole. The not so stiff pole could throw you off like a bucking horse.

Agapit is not questioning in the common sense. His questions are leading, hoping that you will point out the obvious. Ping-pong with words.....

Semantics.......

[volteur]

agapit knows the connecting idea or concept here but isn't sharing it yet. Maybe he is waiting for us?

Imagine a shot put is coming at you instead of the pole at takeoff. Then imagine you had to use your left arm to deflect the shot put away from your head as you takeoff. What is the most efficient way to do this and still complete the takeoff.

The point of this is that the forces are overwhelming with the shot put, far moreso than with a normal pole. So the action of deflection/avoidance is empahsised.

[Tim McMichael]

I think the point is: Do not tell the athletes, that the objective of the correct bottom hand action is to bend the pole. It might give a wrong impression, that eventually leads to exaggeration (blocking).
Sure, the correct arm action at take-off helps initiating the bend, but since that is only a beneficial side-effect that shouldn't be exaggerated, should it not be pointed out as being the reason for it. Bending will happen as a result of a proper take-off (where you push the pole towards vertical with both hands), but the objective is to move the pole/vaulter system forward and UP. You said it yourself, Tim: Move the pole forward.... (which is why stiff poling is so beneficial).

Any modern pole does not act as a perfect column. Force applied directly at the top WILL bend the pole (done whenever poles are tested on the factory) due to the construction of the pole. Bamboo and steel acts very differently and in comparison to modern day poles very unpredictable when bent. The very reason why vaulters sought the stiffest poles then. You knew how to cope with the stiff pole. The not so stiff pole could throw you off like a bucking horse.

Agapit is not questioning in the common sense. His questions are leading, hoping that you will point out the obvious. Ping-pong with words.....

Semantics.......

The pole is not a perfect column, but it is a column nonetheless, and the more it bends the weaker it gets. Try bending a pole by putting it up against a wall and leaning into it with no bottom hand. Then try it with a bottom hand. Try it with a passive, collapsing bottom arm that comes back over your head. With the bottom arm on, it will bend. With it off it will not. Why, oh why, am I pointing out the obvious. Some kid is going to try a one armed plant and get hurt. And yes, this is verbal ping pong, but only because Agapit has not shown his hand. He is insisting on leading questions and the Socratic method. The only problem I have with this is how long it is taking us to get anywhere. It seems that until I say that a pole can be bent with the top hand alone BEFORE it touches the back of the box, he is not going to tell us where this is leading. Frustrating

[AVC Coach]

Is this the "Wizard of Oz" or an informative pole vault forum? Too weird of a thread for me!

[Tim McMichael]

Okay, I give up. I'm having to work too hard to hold my position. I just spent some time talking to Bruce Caldwell who has been making poles forever, and he assured me that with a great takeoff the bottom hand did not need to be on the pole at all. So, I give. Congrats Roman.

[volteur]

All compassionate one,

You almost have people begging you for the answer now, lovely work.

I just read the start of this thread and am surprised you got away with some of that lol. Also very funny but can i suggest a spell checker because idle was throwing my reading rhythm

Whilst i await BTB2 so you can mess around with me a bit I wonder if you could tell me which point on your torso is the centerpoint of your drive into takeoff please. ta

Volt

[powerplant42]

Tim McMichael Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, I give up. I'm having to work too hard to hold my position. I just spent some time talking to Bruce Caldwell who has been making poles forever, and he assured me that with a great takeoff the bottom hand did not need to be on the pole at all. So, I give. Congrats Roman.

However, does a good take-off need a bottom arm? I am not convinced that this particular discussion is over.

[Tim McMichael]

Tim McMichael Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, I give up. I'm having to work too hard to hold my position. I just spent some time talking to Bruce Caldwell who has been making poles forever, and he assured me that with a great takeoff the bottom hand did not need to be on the pole at all. So, I give. Congrats Roman.

However, does a good take-off need a bottom arm? I am not convinced that this particular discussion is over.

You need it for balance, but with a great takeoff, the pole will bend without it.

[vault3rb0y]

Awesome. Now all that vaulters who want the world record have to do is learn how to hypothetically have a "great" take off without a bottom arm. Personally, i dont see how a millisecond of bottom arm pressure is robbing you of so much precious energy that is the difference between the WR and a 6m jump. If anything, in my mind i see no bottom arm leading to a loss of energy into the back of the box. I will continue to put slight pressure on the pole with my bottom arm for a smooth transition into the box, THEN begin to pull with both. Have fun getting that "great" takeoff that makes use of only one of our god given extremities. Let me know how the shoulder surgery goes.

[Tim McMichael]

Awesome. Now all that vaulters who want the world record have to do is learn how to hypothetically have a "great" take off without a bottom arm. Personally, i dont see how a millisecond of bottom arm pressure is robbing you of so much precious energy that is the difference between the WR and a 6m jump. If anything, in my mind i see no bottom arm leading to a loss of energy into the back of the box. I will continue to put slight pressure on the pole with my bottom arm for a smooth transition into the box, THEN begin to pull with both. Have fun getting that "great" takeoff that makes use of only one of our god given extremities. Let me know how the shoulder surgery goes.

I did not say that it is a good idea to try, nor that it will make you jump higher. Nobody in their right mind would try to vault one handed. All I am saying is that it is possible, when I thought and argued that it was not. I feel I have a duty to admit it when I am wrong. Now I suppose Agapit is going to tell us what he thinks the implications of this fact are for the vault. As far as the "great" takeoff goes, it should be the goal of every vaulter to achieve it. No one is perfect at it all of the time.

I will continue to put slight pressure on the pole with my bottom arm for a smooth transition into the box, THEN begin to pull with both.

This is how I jumped my whole career, and I still think it stands up well in the current state of things. A number of very successful vaulters put pressure on the pole with the bottom arm and then swing.

Have fun getting that "great" takeoff that makes use of only one of our god given extremities. Let me know how the shoulder surgery goes.

The movement of the pole keeps the pressure of the top arm from reaching the point of injury. Bubka proved that, and the girls in the photo sequences in Beginner to Bubka are using their bottom arm less than in any jump I have ever seen, and they don't get hurt. There is nothing fun or funny about wishing shoulder surgery on anybody. I'm not sure where that comment came from, but it is beneath you.