Attn: Tim McMichael!

[AVC Coach]

In reference to the bottom arm pushing at take-off, I think the important thing to remember when teaching young vaulters is this.......DO NOT PULL!!! I teach my kids to get the bottom arm moving up, not out, at take-off. I tried teaching the "relaxed bottom arm" method years ago and absolutely nothing happened. Nobody quit pulling and everything stayed the same. Wrong answer!

Until your kids are mentally mature enough to somewhat understand what is actually going on throughout the vault, I believe you have to give them mental cues that will help them hit the postitions they need to hit. Sure, the physics may define the perfect vault one way, but it's our responsibility to teach it in a way the kids can understand and have success with.

Argue if you must about which theory is correct, but what we really need to be worried about is whether or not the kids are hitting the positions they need to hit. In all honesty, do you think any of the top vaulters in the world are going to read any of the posts on this subject and change their minds about what they are doing? It's about the kids! Help them, not confuse them!

[KirkB]

In reference to the bottom arm pushing at take-off, I think the important thing to remember when teaching young vaulters is this.......DO NOT PULL!!! I teach my kids ...

AVC Coach, do you mean "DO NOT PUSH!!!?"

Also, remember that this is an Advanced Technique forum. We're not trying to figure out how to teach anything to kids here.

We're just trying to describe (and understand) good, advanced vaulting technique in a common vernacular that we can all understand and communicate with.

It has been stated in this forum that advanced technique is good for vaulters of any experience level, but I think even that's debatable - and that debate is a topic that's more suitable for a different forum - like Beginner Technique or Intermediate Technique.

For example, even if the 6.40 model holds true for beginners, the terminology and level of detail describing it on this forum is totally inappropriate for them. It's too advanced!

And yes, I do think top vaulters do read these posts, and learn from them. I think that's the intent of this forum.

I think the intent of the Intermediate and Beginner forums are for kids and coaches like yourself to discuss technique appropriate to those levels.

And then there's the private coach's forum.

Kirk Bryde

[golfdane]

Also, remember that this is an Advanced Technique forum. We're not trying to figure out how to teach anything to kids here.

Kirk Bryde

What?? This element is crucial, and needs to be taught from the start. Who knows if the promising kids ends up being a world class jumpers.

Just because a jumper is not poised to break the WR, doesn't mean the jumper doesn't get to be taught the fundamentals right from the start. To many talented jumpers have been spoiled by being taught something that works temporarily, but which is essentially wrong.

True, the advanced forum is not a forum for starters. Too many things to comprehend (which would mess up). Still, it offers the chance for good (and knowledgable)jumpers and ambitious coaches to discuss the fundamentals of any technique. IMO, the fundamentals apply to everyone, regardless of their level.

[AVC Coach]

AVC Coach, do you mean "DO NOT PUSH!!!?"

No, I wrote what I meant. I think that I have a pretty sound understanding of what should happen at take-off and pulling is not an ingredient in that recipe in my opinion.

And maybe the term "kids" was incorrect. I still consider college students "kids" as well. How about I just stick with the term "young vaulters"?

Yes, these discussions do leak down to development at the ground floor level and it's important to remember that.

I understand that this is the "Advanced Technique" forum and everyone has their own theories with their own interpretations of the data that has been presented to them. That's what keeps it interesting.

[golfdane]

AVC Coach, do you mean "DO NOT PUSH!!!?"

No, I wrote what I meant. I think that I have a pretty sound understanding of what should happen at take-off and pulling is not an ingredient in that recipe in my opinion.

And maybe the term "kids" was incorrect. I still consider college students "kids" as well. How about I just stick with the term "young vaulters"?

Yes, these discussions do leak down to development at the ground floor level and it's important to remember that.

I understand that this is the "Advanced Technique" forum and everyone has their own theories with their own interpretations of the data that has been presented to them. That's what keeps it interesting.

It all depends on the definition of PULL. Sure, at take-off, the notion is push (as if you were trying to push a falling tree). When you feel the resistance on the upper hand (which in the free take-off should happen immediately after your take-off foot leaves the ground), a lat pull (as brilliantly described by Kirk here: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/vie ... 25&start=0 (12th post) will add speed to the swing (and thereby energy into the pole)). It's not a pull as you would see when climbing a rope (very common fault with novices).

[Tim McMichael]

If the vaulter can pull in while the pole is bending away, then it will progress the swing.

Hmm ...


In weight-lifting, a common excercise is the "lat pulldown", wherein you lie on your back, reach over your head to grasp the weight, then pull it over your head to your waist. (This excercise is more often done with pulleys than with free weights, but it can be done with either. It can also be done standing - but not with free weights.) This movement is still not exactly the "pull" that he's talking about, because in a lat pulldown, you bend both elbows substantially. But if you do the lat pulldown with both elbows straight, that's much closer to it.


Kirk Bryde

I don't know exactly what Agapit means, but this is what I mean when I talk about pulling, and I worked these lifts more than any other.

[jcoover]

The drive on bottom is pretty incredible and he absolutely smoked that bar hangin somewhere in the midst of 17'. It reminds me a lot of the video that you posted at one point of Buckingham where just as you think there's no way he's gonna make the bar, he just blows right over.

Just because the left arm is straight doesn't mean he is pushing with it. Everyone assumes that because the arm goes to a straight position that the vaulter pushes his arm out... even with Bubka when it has been clarified he was pulling in. The reason the arm straightens out is because of the bending of the pole. If the vaulter can pull in while the pole is bending away, then it will progress the swing. Try and swing with a pushed left arm... Just try and do a grass plant with a pushing left arm...

I didn't mean anything with the left arm. I am a big believer that a forced straightening of the left arm is a "passive" phase and should be eliminated according to the 6.40m model that any elite vaulter should follow to some extent. By ''drive'' I only meant that his penultimate step is very quick, and his chest penetrates well because of this. Sorry, ''drive'' is a weird word choice! Hope this clears up my thinking

[KirkB]

AVC Coach, do you mean "DO NOT PUSH!!!?"

No, I wrote what I meant. I think that I have a pretty sound understanding of what should happen at take-off and pulling is not an ingredient in that recipe in my opinion.

Oh! You mean pulling with BOTH arms - with your biceps, straight up the pole. That's a habit that beginners have. Advanced vaulters PUSH and SQUEEZE (or at least don't PULL) with the top hand. What happens with the BOTTOM hand is what's being discussed on this thread by the Advanced coaches/athletes. That's why I missed your point. The topic of PULLING with the top arm (bicep pull, as you mean, not lat pull, as Agapit and Tim mean) hasn't really even come up much yet, as we've been focussing on what the bottom arm should do.

All the more evidence that we need a qualifying adverb to distinguish what kind of pull we mean - lat pull or bicep pull.

Kirk Bryde

[KirkB]

True, the advanced forum is not a forum for starters. Too many things to comprehend (which would mess up). Still, it offers the chance for good (and knowledgable)jumpers and ambitious coaches to discuss the fundamentals of any technique. IMO, the fundamentals apply to everyone, regardless of their level.

If I've misunderstood the intent of each of the 3 Technique forums, then I apologize. I will follow whatever guidance the site administrator (Becca) recommends.

Kirk Bryde

[golfdane]

True, the advanced forum is not a forum for starters. Too many things to comprehend (which would mess up). Still, it offers the chance for good (and knowledgable)jumpers and ambitious coaches to discuss the fundamentals of any technique. IMO, the fundamentals apply to everyone, regardless of their level.

If I've misunderstood the intent of each of the 3 Technique forums, then I apologize. I will follow whatever guidance the site administrator (Becca) recommends.

Kirk Bryde

My point was, that the young athletes needs as much focus on the exact same fundamentals as the world class athlete. It's too easy get bad habits, and they are so hard to get rid of again. If an athlete thinks that the holy grail of pole vaulting, is to bend the pole, then blocking with the lower arm becomes second nature.

IMO, the difference between the 3 forums is the audience, and to what degree the fundamentals are described, but the fundamentals are the same.

Still, Becca rules, and I might be wrong

[AVC Coach]

Oh! You mean pulling with BOTH arms - with your biceps, straight up the pole. That's a habit that beginners have. Advanced vaulters PUSH and SQUEEZE (or at least don't PULL) with the top hand. What happens with the BOTTOM hand is what's being discussed on this thread by the Advanced coaches/athletes. That's why I missed your point. The topic of PULLING with the top arm (bicep pull, as you mean, not lat pull, as Agapit and Tim mean) hasn't really even come up much yet, as we've been focussing on what the bottom arm should do.

Thanks for clarifying that KirkB! I don't consider myself an "Advanced Coach" my any means. I'm just a dumb guy from Arkansas that needs words capitalized and italicized to comprehend all of the information I'm trying to gather so that I might help my athletes jump higher.

You crack me up. Good stuff!

[vault3rb0y]

Oh! You mean pulling with BOTH arms - with your biceps, straight up the pole. That's a habit that beginners have. Advanced vaulters PUSH and SQUEEZE (or at least don't PULL) with the top hand. What happens with the BOTTOM hand is what's being discussed on this thread by the Advanced coaches/athletes. That's why I missed your point. The topic of PULLING with the top arm (bicep pull, as you mean, not lat pull, as Agapit and Tim mean) hasn't really even come up much yet, as we've been focussing on what the bottom arm should do.

All the more evidence that we need a qualifying adverb to distinguish what kind of pull we mean - lat pull or bicep pull.

Kirk Bryde

Whats more important, transfering more energy through top hand?... or possibly sacrificing that energy transfer by pulling with the bottom hand to speed up the inversion?


Unless i still misunderstand your definition of "pull"... to me a bottom arm pull will redirect your weight to your bottom hand. Essentially you wont be making use of the part of the pole in between your hands, and the transfer of energy would be greatly hindered. I heard the "new" definition of pull, given those exercises of lat pull overs, and to me, doing that sounds like a "row"... please enlighten my slow mind once again .