Oklahoma Pole Vault Manifesto

[captainfalcon43]

Alan.... what do you have to say about this?

[Bruce Caldwell]

TIM HOW MUCH DID POLE DESIGN influence the ability to implement the process you used. I think it was hard to do on a normal design.
Building 17' poles in a 16'5" pole makes this hard for the short vaulter.
Changes had to help one implement the process such as a smaller sail and different pole building concepts?

[Tim McMichael]

I have taken the last few days to reflect on it, and there are definitely some things I need to add to the thoughts I have posted so far. I firmly believe that the drive vault is not well understood and is maligned for reasons that are not legitimate. I am also convinced that I would not have enjoyed the limited success that I did manage to achieve with any other technique. But I need to clarify where I currently stand as a coach.

There are a number of things that recommend the Petrov model above the drive vault. One of the strongest, to my mind, is the fact that its principles can apply to any athlete of any ability at every stage of development. Alan proved that in his book. I don’t think that the same can be said for the vault I have described. While I would not change a vaulter who was already successful with a drive vault, and you will never hear me say it is a bankrupt idea, I would think very long and hard before agreeing to teach it to a beginner or someone wanting to convert to it from some other model. I have refused to do so in the past.

The extreme and isolated circumstances that created my vault were unique. There is nothing standardized or incrementally progressive about it. While I was willing to do it myself, I would never ask a 95 pound freshman to spend three months not making it past the box so he could learn to jump 40 pounds over his weight. It worked, but that is not the kind of thing I would recommend anyone else doing. With the Petrov model, there can be a gradual increase in power and ability while still having considerable success early in the process.

I believe the drive vault is every bit as effective, in limited circumstances, as the Petrov model. But there are important elements that have nothing to do with the efficiency of the form that should be considered when assessing its overall value.

[vaulter870]

if i understand what you are saying tim then the answer to bruces question is that you would want a pole that has a lower then normal sail piece because of the angle of attack at the plant. i dont know if that is right but i think that is what i got out of what you are saying

[Tim McMichael]

if i understand what you are saying tim then the answer to bruces question is that you would want a pole that has a lower then normal sail piece because of the angle of attack at the plant. i dont know if that is right but i think that is what i got out of what you are saying

That's exactly right. The sail piece had to be considerably lower than normal for my jump to work at all. Pole design was absolutely critical. If the pole bends uniformly, the athlete has to take a higher attack angle to make it roll over. With a pole that bends more in the top than the bottom, this is not the case. The center of my sailpiece was 82" from the bottom of the pole. Anything higher than that, and I just could not penetrate, even on softer flexes. I planted a stock 17' 175 once. It was not pretty.

[vaulter870]

what size pole would that be if the sail piece was normaly at around 82" is that a 5m or something around there?

[Tim McMichael]

I'm pretty sure a 82" center is more in the 15'9" range. But there is a lot more that goes into the calculation than that number. Earl Bell always said that the top of the short side of the sailpiece was a more important measurement than the middle. We started measuring the center because the first poles we redesigned were the yellow Cata-Poles and it was easier to do it that way. In '85 Mr. Dial got the idea of designing a pole around Joe's jump instead of the other way around. They ordered a set of 17' poles and started cutting a half inch at a time off of the bottom till they matched up with his attack angle. By the time they were through they were only 15'10" long, but Joe jumped 19'2" on them that same year.

A note of warning in case someone gets the wrong idea from this: I do not recommend cutting poles unless you really know what you are doing. There are a lot of different designs out there now that will work just fine right out of the box. If I were buying poles for myself today I would go with Skypole or Essx. Both are designed with lower sailpieces already built into them. I have no idea what the designs of the various Pacers are, so I can’t comment on them. They may be building a lower sail in the FXs. I just don’t know.

Things got a lot better for me when I stopped having to saw away at longer stock poles to get the configuration I needed. Bruce might not remember this, but he designed the pole I set my indoor PR on. It was the first pole I had built to my own specs, and it worked great. Bruce might still have it around somewhere, or he might know what the exact numbers on it were.

[vaulter870]

hmm that is very interesting. i cant believe that Joe Dial needed a sail piece so low but i guess that it fit the way he was jumping. i am not sure about where the sail peices are in each or the different manufacuters poles but i would love to know where they are. Bruce if you get a chance could you maybe drop a little info about essx poles and anyother poles you know about

[altius]

In Singapore old Falcon on the way back to OZ. However I am not going to respond because Tim has made up his mind about this issue and I am not going to try to debate the issues any more. I have put my cards on th table many times - I still have no doubts that the Petrov/Bubka model is the best model for young athletes to attempt to master. But each to his own.

[dj]

good morning

i had a chance to briefly read tim mcmichaels' okie manifesto...

very awesome...

interestingly enough ladyvolcoach and i have been discussing the points tim explains for the last 2/3 weeks trying to figure out how i can get them on paper to post....

so this coversation can be shifted over to that post... looks like no one wanted to continue here anyway...

i think the only real dicussion now is... what is a real free takeoff? not just the "visual" that allan discribes but the physical... which i feel is what really needs to be understood... it's not just simply an "out" takeoff...

more on that later..

the second point is takeoff angle.. and the takeoff angle is and should be, in most part determined by the pole flex and not by "jumping" at the takeoff.. although there should be a "jumping move" and that ties in with what i view as a "free takeoff..

got work... more later...

shift to okie.. manifesto

; )

dj

ps... i think the poles design did have a big effect... during those years i check every pole i could.. blue, yellow, brown, black, green.. it seemed everyones "sweet" pole had some simular patterns... so we had tully's poles made from those parametors

[Bruce Caldwell]

Other post about what Tim has offered please post here in this forum on technique
For the sake of being able to add to Tims very informative post and as some content of my answer seems to be on the edge of Advertising I am placing my answer about poles in the sales forum.

Hi DJ
We have had this discussion many times, Mike Tully had some special designed poles at that time 1976 they were one of a kind. Only 6 poles existed with this concept 3 Pacer III and 3 Skypoles Banana.
They generated from the design used by Earl Bell to break his first World record. He took those poles to AMF VOIT Pacer III as Sky pole engineers at the time were not understanding a vaulters needs for stronger poles and would not continue to make the design I introduced in 1976. Pacer III at the time George Moore (who by the way was my mentor and a great man to the industry.)

For the rest of this info go to here:

http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/vie ... 3485#83485

Other post about what Tim has offered please post here in this forum on technique
726

[Tim McMichael]

In Singapore old Falcon on the way back to OZ. However I am not going to respond because Tim has made up his mind about this issue and I am not going to try to debate the issues any more. I have put my cards on th table many times - I still have no doubts that the Petrov/Bubka model is the best model for young athletes to attempt to master. But each to his own.

I have far from made up my mind, and I admitted as much only a few posts ago. The only thing I am definite about is that I, personally, would not have done as well with Petrov’s technique. The ability to long jump is essential to achieving world class status with that method. I could not long jump. So it follows that my success had to result from other technical factors. I am interested in discussing those factors in this thread. I have some definite ideas about it simply because I lived it and spent decades thinking about it and working on it. I am, however, sold on Petrov’s method because I have had so much more success in coaching it.

The advice and information about how to teach the Petrov model, are in my opinion, the most valuable parts of Beginner to Bubka. The one thing I learned that I did not already know – and it astonished me -is that the essential elements of the Petrov model can be learned by beginners and employed effectively by intermediate athletes in an amazingly short period of time. That fact should be written in neon lights and hung up in front of the runways at the Summit.

At this point, if I were to write a book, it would be about how various methods work, simply as an information resource and not as advice concerning what is best. Unless I could develop and prove an effective method of teaching my technique to athletes of varying sizes and abilities, I would not dare to write anything like a coaching manual for the drive vault. The LAST thing I want to do is suggest that Petrov should be abandoned for my ideas and experience. Who am I? How many World Records have I jumped or coached? All I have to my name is a few years on the bottom rungs of the world class ranks while being arguably the worst athlete on the field in any major meet I attended.

Alan, I will say it for all to hear, Beginner to Bubka is not perfect, but it is the best resource for learning to teach the pole vault that I have come across. I have some questions to ask you that I desperately want answers to. I would love to engage you in constructive dialogue. Very little of what I have said in my “manifestoâ€Â