Free Take off vs. Pre-Jump

[Spencer Chang, MD]

As I mentioned in the article, 5 - 10 cm out is ideal, which I think Bubka at his best was probably doing. 30 cm plus like Markov and Feofanova is too much. But Alan, you are right, I did not talk to Bubka. I have not asked this question of Petrov specifically. However, David Butler has talked to Petrov regarding this point, and my understanding was that he told him 5 - 10 cm out.

I am looking at this from a scientific standpoint putting physics into play. You yourself have said that Markov and Feofanova, didn't catch the ride. I believe this is the reason.

Looking at video from Bubka, I believe he was taking off from a free take-off and not a pre-jump per se. Perhaps it is semantics. However, if you take off from 5 - 10 cm out, as you finish your take-off, the pole hits the back of the box. I think this is ideal. I think from 10 - 30 cm, there is this gray area. From 30 cm plus, the vaulter is definitely traveling in the air before the pole hits the back of the box. I don't think this is a good idea, and from what I understand, neither does Petrov.

From a standpoint of achieving the free take-off, if the vaulter tries to do a free take-off, the vaulter is often not perfect and ends up under. If the vaulter tries to achieve a pre-jump per se, the vaulter achieves the free take-off. Perhaps this is what Bubka's intention was? I don't know, but you where there. Both you and I know that Isi as far as I can tell, has not been able to take-off from a free take-off or pre-jump. However, she has been very successful. Must be much more than just where one takes off to achieve success in the pole vault.

It is good to hear from you Alan. Just don't yell at me ok. You sometimes get very worked up about these things. Just trying to think outside of the box.

[altius]

Was I really yelling in my response - if so I will have to get you to send me some Vallium. No Spencer I dont think I was yelling - it is just that after fighting the good fight to try change perceptions that go back to the 1950s it does become wearing. But as a good doctor should, you have done me a service - for this little episode has encouraged me to follow my good friend agapit and at least take a break from PVP. I am trying to rewrite my games book and PVP continually gets in the way - obsessions are like that. So what is the phrase - good night and good luck.

[tennpolevault]

I have a vaulter (decathlete) who always takes off out. He can hit 53 or 48 on his mid-mark and still takes off not closer than 13'6. Most of his vaults are from 14' to 15'. His PR was done with a 51 foot mid and 14' 8" take-off. Many times he sinks down after take-off, but his exceptional speed and leaping abililty make it possible to many times finish jumps with good continuity. I am hoping that over time he can improve his grip quite a bit, but he only vaults about once a week or so. He is currently vaulting from 14 strides and gripping about 15' 3". Have you guys ever dealt with any athlete who only likes to take-off really far out?

[Spencer Chang, MD]

Alan, my comment was tongue in cheek. Your response wasn't yelling at me. Sort of an inside joke as the last time you disagreed with me, you were quite animated. I respect your comments tremendously and as you can see, I did list you as a reference. I was hoping to stimulate healthy reflection on the subject. Perhaps PVP isn't the place to do it if we all disappear.

[KirkB]

A nice paper.

Agreed!

Spencer, I'm still reading it, and making notes. I'll have more comments later. Stay tuned.

Given that 80% of US athletes take off under and load the pole well before they leave the ground - as do many vaulters around the world, this discussion is almost irrelevant anyway.

This is a fatalistic attitude.

I think we should all be optimistic on discovering the Holy Grail of "optimal PV technique". Even if we can only reduce that so-called 80% down to 79%, remember that it's the journey that's important ... not the destination. It just takes a little patience and tolerance.

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

If you all do dissapear, be sure to give me the memo for when and where the next meeting will be!

There is a big, big difference between discussing optimal technique and imploying tactics to achieve it. It seems clear to me that this is a discussion of optimal technique, and that training for a pre-jump is all that young vaulters need to focus on. They do this in terms of mental ques facilitated by their coach. The less they know, the more the coach can control this 5-10cm compared to 30cm..... or for that matter -30cm to 0cm. It is better to understand the limits of different aspects of the vault rather than "overdose" in terms of what is healthy.

A little health analogy, since they seem so popular with the presence of a doctor. When Americans learned that some vitamins were good for immune functioning, we took so many that eventually their effect was the same of a deficiency! I believe optimal levels exist in the vault as well, and unless we find them, we might overdose too.

[altius]

Just a note to confirm that I will be unable to answer pms as I have in the past. It is time to take a break - this has nothing to do with my discussion with my friend Spencer. My commitment has been weakening since i was treated as persona non grata at the Summit this year -for reasons I still do not understand. This has affected me more deeply than I had thought. I have enjoyed my involvement with this great site and hope Becca can keep it running for years to come -a great contribution to pole vault education. All best wishes to y'all in the future.

[KirkB]

EDIT: Since this thread should be about the "Free Take off vs. Pre-Jump", I've moved my comments about Altius' planned hiatus from PVP and USA Tour to a more appropriate thread ... here http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17728&p=126840#p126840.

Kirk