Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

[MadeinTaiwan]

correct me if i am wrong, but from how i read agapits posts, and i have never met him, so its all from his posts, was that the lat pull/pull only begins after the pole vaulter has passed the cord of the pole i.e. there is a line from the top hand all the way down to the foot, and that it was primarily used to speed up the rotation of the vaulter so that he/she could reach "inversion" ahead of the poles recoil........i may be wrong.

[joebro391]

correct me if i am wrong, but from how i read agapits posts, and i have never met him, so its all from his posts, was that the lat pull/pull only begins after the pole vaulter has passed the cord of the pole i.e. there is a line from the top hand all the way down to the foot, and that it was primarily used to speed up the rotation of the vaulter so that he/she could reach "inversion" ahead of the poles recoil........i may be wrong.

Now, the lat-pull is not something i'm an 'expert' on haha, so Kirk would probably give a better answer (if not the best) but i'll give it a shot. The 'lat-pull' is not a pulling of the arms (as in, the elbows never bend). It's not like a lat-pulldown, if that what you think (that's what i first thought). It's more of a latteral-pull, over your head, with your shoulders. Now, according to Kirk, it's nearly impossible, and I think, the only 'main-stream' vaulter to really do it properly was LoJo.

Think about taking a broom-stick (to simulate the pole) and holding it above your head, like you should be, at take-off. Then, think about moving your top-hand, forward. What this does, is INITIATE THE SWING Now, here's where I get confused: To me, it's kinda like a 'row' but any beginner can row, so apparently it's much different than a row.

Perhaps can Kirk can shine a little light on the subject. Come to think about it...what's this have to do with this thread?? hahaha

[powerplant42]

6P... I believe you're WAY off.



I had the concept demonstrated to me once by someone that had learned about it from Roman in person, so there was not the limitation of words when he was taught the idea (nor was I). It has (basically) nothing to do with the top arm.

[VaultMarq26]

I believe you're WAY off.

Way off on what?.......Most of what he said sounded pretty good....

[KirkB]

... Now, according to Kirk, it's nearly impossible, and I think, the only 'main-stream' vaulter to really do it properly was LoJo.

I'm not so sure that LoJo did it either. Maybe he COULD do it, but you should not assume that he did it merely because Agapit coached him at one time. From what I've heard, LoJo had many technical flaws, but was a natural athlete that could jump over the moon wearing his sunglasses ... or some hyperbole like that. I would be very surprised if he was superlative regarding the "lat pull", but if you can provide some quote from Agapit re this, I'll recant.

... Think about taking a broom-stick (to simulate the pole) and holding it above your head, like you should be, at take-off. Then, think about moving your top-hand, forward. What this does, is INITIATE THE SWING Now, here's where I get confused: To me, it's kinda like a 'row' but any beginner can row, so apparently it's much different than a row.

Perhaps can Kirk can shine a little light on the subject. Come to think about it...what's this have to do with this thread?? hahaha

Thanks for the vote of confidence, 6P, that I can clarify this, but I really can't.

You see, Agapit is the ONLY expert on the 6.40 Model. In it, he talks about a "pull" that begins immediately after the pole hits the box. If you read and interpret his thread(s) carefully, he also constrains his 6.40 Model to what someone could/should/must (choose one - I really don't want to put words into Agapit's mouth here) do to clear 6.40.

My ONLY contribution to his explanation is to distinguish his "pull" from other types of "pulls" that are easily confused with - for example - the type of pull you do when doing chin-ups.

After I coined the term "lat pull" to distinguish Agapit's type of pull, I since found out that it's more than just the lats that do the work. So even my term isn't accurate. Only Agapit can clarify this for certain, since it's his model. Where is this guy when we need him? Agapit, isn't your sabbatical over yet?

6P, it's different than a "row". A row occurs later, when you're trying to invert and your swing doesn't get your far enough back. This would be more in the second half of your swing - not the first half.

The "lat pull" occurs IMMEDIATELY upon the pole hitting the box (according to Agapit). I really don't understand much more than that. I have no experience with this technique, and I'm openly skeptical about it. That in itself should be enough to convince you that I'm no expert regarding the "lat pull".

I think the issue is on topic. Push, pull, lat pull, and "nothing" are all possible things that you might do with your bottom arm when the pole hits the box.

So far, after 370 views, we have 7 votes for "no push"; 2 for "a little push is OK"; 0 for "push"; and 1 for none of the above.

I'm a bit surprised at the tallies, because it sounded to me (recently) that there were quite a few posters on PVP that advocated that "a little push is OK". If you're one of these, but you're afraid to vote that way for fear of getting into an argument where the majority (us "true Petrovers") outnumber you, then I'm disappointed. This thread is intended to follow a couple of Becca's founding principles, which is to respect the opinions of others, and to "play nice". Who knows - maybe you're right and the majority is wrong!

Whatever your opinions, I encourage you to share them, without fear of reprisal.

Or will you remain a "closet pusher"? (Now I'm taunting you to come out of the closet and speak your mind! ha! ha!)

Kirk

[KirkB]

... It has (basically) nothing to do with the top arm.

To try to clarify this point, my understanding is also that Agapit is ONLY referring to the bottom arm.

He does talk about what the top arm does, but he's not controversial about that. The controversial part of his 6.40 Model (i.e. different than Petrov) is about what the bottom arm does.

That's also a distinction between "rowing" and "lat pull". Rowing is with both arms; lat pull is just with the bottom arm. AFTER the INITIAL lat pull with the bottom arm, the top arm joins in, but not initially - according to Agapit.

Actually, my emphasis is from the other end of the body. I emphasize the TRAIL LEG leading the rest of the body, whereas Agapit says that the bottom arm initiates, and the rest of the body follows.

I respect his opinion - but I don't agree with him. (How's that for playing nice?)

Kirk

[dougb]

The Plant


I am writing this in regard to the discussion. “Is pushing with the left arm good or bad”

Let me preface my comments by saying that they may be worth what you are paying for them!

There are certain elements of the plant that seem to be in agreement.

The speed should be at the vaulters maximum.
The top hand should be at its maximum height.
The body posture should be upright.
The takeoff foot should be off the ground when the pole hits the back of the box.

Each of these varies with differing amounts of consequence to the vault.

For example:

The speed should allow the vaulter to be in control. If the speed does not allow the vaulter to control the plant, the result may be undesirable.
If the vaulter jumps too vertically then the speed may suffer, but the hand will be high.
The take off foot can be off the ground in varying amounts with varying effects. More on this later.

What is clear is that there have been great vaults that don’t fit all of the above requirements. Take a look at Brad walkers USA record vault

I spent the weekend at the Pole Vault Summit watching vaulters of all abilities just observing whether they pushed with their left arm or how much. The add Hoch results were that younger vaulters almost always collapsed the lower arm and senior/elite vaulters kept their arm stiff. (By stiff I mean no more that 10 deg flex). I contribute this difference to the fact that everyone starts vaulting on a stiff pole which requires a collapsing lower arm.

Now, why would the top vaulters push with their lower arm when the consensus seems to be that they should pull?

The answer, I feel, is that they need to stay behind the chord of the pole. If a vaulter collapses the bottom arm, then, because the vaulters center of gravity is below the top hand their hips will swing towards the pit reducing the pressure on the pole at take off. When the vaulters body approaches the chord the pressure comes back on the pole which then begins to bend. Unfortunately, this is the point in the vault when the vaulter is trying to invert and the pole is still sagging. Ever try to climb a bungee?

The elite vaulters drive in with a stiff lower arm and use it to keep the upright body position through the first part of the vault. This is the part where the bending of the pole occurs. Since they are upright at the beginning of the swing they are able to maintain a continuous motion (chain ) to inversion.

I conjecture. That any flex or swing of the vaulters body that occurs when the pressure first comes on to the pole will reduce that pressure. Since this is primarily a pole bending event, the height which can be achieved will be reduced.

Therefore the left arm should be stiff. But to qualify, a lot of other stuff has to happen as well.

Doug Balcomb
PV Coach, Colfax HS, Calif.

[joebro391]

Now, why would the top vaulters push with their lower arm when the consensus seems to be that they should pull?

who's consensus is that you should pull with the bottom arm?? are we reading the same thread??

The answer, I feel, is that they need to stay behind the chord of the pole. If a vaulter collapses the bottom arm, then, because the vaulters center of gravity is below the top hand their hips will swing towards the pit reducing the pressure on the pole at take off.

Because the vaulter's body is naturally swinging towards the pit, centripetal force will actually ADD MORE ENERGY to the system and in turn, add MORE 'pressure' to the top arm.

When the vaulters body approaches the chord the pressure comes back on the pole which then begins to bend

yea,that's a good thing

Unfortunately, this is the point in the vault when the vaulter is trying to invert and the pole is still sagging. Ever try to climb a bungee?

that sounds rather contradictory. The bungee metaphor...only confused me further.

The elite vaulters drive in with a stiff lower arm and use it to keep the upright body position through the first part of the vault. This is the part where the bending of the pole occurs. Since they are upright at the beginning of the swing they are able to maintain a continuous motion (chain ) to inversion.

hmmm...how can there be continuous motion if you press your arm to "keep the upright body position through the first part of the vault"??? doesnt' sound very continous with that big pause right there. Now, i'm believe in a split-second moment, to drive your chest and build up a nice pre-stretch in the shoulders, which will 'snap back' and produce a harder swing (only think i disagree with, in the 6.40 model. i might disagree with the bottom-arm-thing, if i understood it more haha)

I conjecture. That any flex or swing of the vaulters body that occurs when the pressure first comes on to the pole will reduce that pressure. Since this is primarily a pole bending event, the height which can be achieved will be reduced.

once again, centripetal force adds energy to the system (that's why bubka swang his left leg so long and hard). -6P

[dougb]

who's consensus is that you should pull with the bottom arm?? are we reading the same thread??

Sorry I should have said "no push". See voting results at top of page.

Because the vaulter's body is naturally swinging towards the pit, centripetal force will actually ADD MORE ENERGY to the system and in turn, add MORE 'pressure' to the top arm.

I belive the pressure is coming from the arms not toward the arms. That is, the pole is being energised by the force of the run and weight of the vaulter. This is before any centripital force begins. My points is the centripital force should come later and faster.

yea,that's a good thing

That is a good thing, but not if it occurs at the wrong time.

that sounds rather contradictory. The bungee metaphor...only confused me further

Sorry, I mean to say that when the vaulter reaches the chord he/she should begin to invert. If the pole is begining to bend at the same time, it will slow the swing.

hmmm...how can there be continuous motion if you press your arm to "keep the upright body position through the first part of the vault"??? doesnt' sound very continous with that big pause right there. Now, i'm believe in a split-second moment, to drive your chest and build up a nice pre-stretch in the shoulders, which will 'snap back' and produce a harder swing (only think i disagree with, in the 6.40 model. i might disagree with the bottom-arm-thing, if i understood it more haha)

What I am proposing is; the chest drive and pre-strech are enabled by the left arm driving the pole up.

once again, centripetal force adds energy to the system (that's why bubka swang his left leg so long and hard). -6P

Take another look at Bubka and you will see that he drove his left arm up. Remember he was on an extremly stiff pole and bent it further than anyone. It didn't happen because of his swing.

Douglas Balcomb

[KirkB]

EDIT: I posted this before I read joebro's comments, and your reply to him. I'll just leave the rest of my post without any further edits. We can pick up the pieces later.

Doug, I appreciate your contribution to this thread ...

...
The speed should be at the vaulters maximum.
The top hand should be at its maximum height.
The body posture should be upright.
The takeoff foot should be off the ground when the pole hits the back of the box.

Each of these varies with differing amounts of consequence to the vault. ...

Full agreement.

... For example:

The speed should allow the vaulter to be in control. If the speed does not allow the vaulter to control the plant, the result may be undesirable.
If the vaulter jumps too vertically then the speed may suffer, but the hand will be high.
The take off foot can be off the ground in varying amounts with varying effects. More on this later. ...

Full agreement. Tell me more ... later.

... What is clear is that there have been great vaults that don’t fit all of the above requirements. Take a look at Brad Walker's USA record vault ...

Can you expand on this? I didn't think it was "near perfect" technique either, but maybe for different reasons than yours.

... I spent the weekend at the Pole Vault Summit watching vaulters of all abilities just observing whether they pushed with their left arm or how much. The ad hoc results were that younger vaulters almost always collapsed the lower arm and senior/elite vaulters kept their arm stiff. (By stiff I mean no more that 10 deg flex). ...

Your observations. I don't question your eyesight, but I do question which came first - the chicken or the egg? This is the same trap as when analyzing vids. Did the left arm MOVE because the pole BENT, or did the pole BEND because the left arm PUSHED? Are you SURE which came first? How can you be sure? Did you ASK the vaulters about their INTENT or how it FELT?

I'm not trying to load this question with my personal opinion - I'm just trying to get the the truth of the matter. Please take my questions as being "unloaded".

Perhaps the best way to get to the TRUE answers to this line of questioning is to simply ask the vaulters that were at the Summit and are on this board. (Actually, this was the intent of my poll - to get vaulter's INTENT.) I think you can vote without having to reply, can't you? If so, please do that! (I recant my request to defend your vote. This is perhaps good justification for anonymity.)

... I contribute this difference to the fact that everyone starts vaulting on a stiff pole which requires a collapsing lower arm. ...

Your conclusion. I would buy it if the observations were correct. Maybe they are, and maybe they're not. I'm just asking. I do know that if they PUSH, it's by INTENT. But if they COLLAPSE, is it possible that it's not by intent? Is it possible that it's because they screwed up their plant/takeoff somehow, AND SO THE TOP HAND DIDN'T BEND THE POLE ON ITS OWN LIKE THE ELITE VAULTERS DID IT?

... Now, why would the top vaulters push with their lower arm ...

Assuming that they do!

... when the consensus seems to be that they should pull? ...

Pull? Are you referring to the Petrov model, the 6.40 model, or some other model?

...The answer, I feel, is that they need to stay behind the chord of the pole. ...

I agree that you "need to stay behind the [chord of the] pole".

But if this is rephrased to "you need to keep the pole AHEAD of you", then does that change your perspective? I mean, if you have a free takeoff and transfer all of the energy that you possibly can (say 99%) into the pole via THE TOP HAND ONLY, then won't THAT cause the pole to stay AHEAD of you?

I seem to be having similar discussions with many posters about this. (Yesterday was Marq.) [sigh] Do y'all get it, or am I just an old fogie with out-of-date ideas about what it takes to bend the pole and to vault EFFICIENTLY?

... #1 If a vaulter collapses the bottom arm, then, because the vaulters center of gravity is below the top hand, #2 their hips will swing towards the pit #3 reducing the pressure on the pole at take off. #4 When the vaulters body approaches the chord #5 the pressure comes back on the pole #6 which then begins to bend. ...

You make it sound like the vaulter PURPOSELY collapses his bottom arm. I think the arm collapses as a CONSEQUENCE of something that went wrong either prior to the pole hitting the box, or at the instant that it hits.

With all due respect, the sequence that you describe isn't quite so. (I've added #s to your sequence for reference.)

For the sake of trying to understand an alternate cause/effect, consider this ...

The vaulter slowed down during the plant, and didn't jump vigorously on takeoff. His top hand wasn't stretched as high as it could have been when the pole hit, and he didn't "punch" the pole up (with both hands, but mostly with the top hand) just before it hit. The vaulter was also "under" and leaning back. All of these flaws put him into a "lazy C".

(An upright C would be when you're taking off tall - even with a bit of a forward lean. A "lazy C" would be when you're leaning backwards when you get into the C position - shortly after the pole hits.) The lazy C is a "stuck" or "passive" position, where there's nowhere to downswing. The vaulter would LIKE to downswing, then upswing. But since they're stuck in the lazy C, there's not much of a downswing at all. Had there been a downswing, then the upswing would have been all the more powerful.

If you're wondering about how you know whether or not you're in the downswing or the upswing, the simple answer is that when you transform from down to up, you WHIP your trail leg. The crack of the whip separates the two. Broken record here: This is best learned on the highbar.

(I apologize for using terms that aren't normally used these days. I didn't use them back in my day either. They're just words that seem to make sense to me now. It's hard to put HOW IT FELT into words.)

... Unfortunately, this is the point in the vault when the vaulter is trying to invert and the pole is still sagging. Ever try to climb a bungee? ...

Hmm ... well, I think the vaulter should to try to finish his downswing before he tries to invert. And if I read you correctly, you're inferring that the INVERT happens as the pole RECOILS. Actually, your bungee analogy is a good one - but in the opposite way that you're saying. As the pole (or the bungee) "sags", that's the EASIEST and BEST time to invert (get upside down). The shoulders can drop more easily, as the hips (and the rest of the body) can rise up - relative to the CoM. If you're trying to INVERT after the pole starts to recoil, you're too late - you're going to have to muscle up, instead of using the body's natural swinging action (which is more efficient than using your muscles).

... The elite vaulters drive in with a stiff lower arm ...

Your assumption. This might or might not be true. (We'll see how they vote - although we won't be able t distinguish elite votes from beginner votes. However, the INTENT of all levels should be similar.)

... and use it to keep the upright body position through the first part of the vault. This is the part where the bending of the pole occurs. Since they are upright at the beginning of the swing they are able to maintain a continuous motion (chain ) to inversion.

Well, I certainly agree that they're more upright. I looked at Neidermeyer's winning vault quite closely, and was actually going to comment on it in a different thread. Yeh, that's why he won! He's upright in the C - like Bubka and Isi. No lazy C for Darren! And look at the power in his DOWNSWING! Dougb, I agree with you 100% on this point!

I conjecture. That any flex or swing of the vaulters body that occurs when the pressure first comes on to the pole will reduce that pressure. Since this is primarily a pole bending event, the height which can be achieved will be reduced.

Your conjecture. I think this is where I'm getting my money's worth.

The "continuous chain" model - which both the Petrov model and the 6.40 model support - is quite the opposite. The vaulter's DOWNSWING puts MORE "pressure" (energy) into the pole. All the work that the vaulter does up to and including the WHIP (i.e. the entire DOWNSWING) puts energy INTO the pole. This is roughly to the point of the vaulter passing the pole's chord. If done correctly, it's only AFTER the whip that pressure is relieved and the pole begins to (or SHOULD begin to) recoil.

Therefore the left arm should be stiff. ...

Your conclusion. Possibly inaccurate if your observations were inaccurate. The jury is still out on this one.

... But to qualify, a lot of other stuff has to happen as well.

We're back to 100% agreement!

Kirk

[KirkB]

Take another look at Bubka and you will see that he drove his left arm up. Remember he was on an extremly stiff pole and bent it further than anyone. It didn't happen because of his swing.

Doug, reading quickly thru your reply to joebro, I think your quote above is the crux of our contention.

You infer that if his swing DIDN'T bend the pole, then his bottom arm MUST HAVE BENT IT.

Let's think about what happened prior to his pole hitting the box ...

Can we agree that his run was extremely powerful, and his takeoff was extremely powerful? Can we agree that he SOMEHOW transferred all (or almost all) of this power/momentum into the pole?

If we can agree on that, then there's only 2 questions remaining:

1. HOW did he transfer that energy into the pole? Was it thru his top hand, his bottom hand, or both? I assert that it was 99% thru his top hand only.

2. Did he generate MORE energy into the pole by his swing? I assert that he did.

There's quite a few threads that cover this exact topic - too numerous to list right now. If you can't find them, I'll find the link(s) for you - or someone else can.

And just so that you don't feel like joebro and I are ganging up on you, your opinion is quite a common one - as you'll see in these other threads re whether Bubka pushed or not with his bottom arm.

I hope you will challenge me where you think my opinion is archaic or just plain wrong. I'm a big boy - I can take it!

Kirk

[joebro391]

To Doug: I agree with what you're saying about taking off, upright, i just don't feel that using a stiff arm is nessaccery to achieve it. I think the reason why you feel bubka 'pushed with his bottom arm is simply because it didn't collapes (other than in the '88 olympics, cause it did there, a lot). And here's why it didn't collapse, and at the same time, he didn't push out.
1: He was so tall at take off, and leaped so well, that his body rose, with the bending of the pole. That made it only appear like he was pressing out, when, in actuallity, he bottom arm was relaxed and just going 'with the flow' of the pole.
2: Also, Bubka, like myself (in bubka's suit haha), point the elbow of our bottom arms, out, away from us. Watch again and you might see what i mean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b8OKuHLR68 - the music in this video is horrible, but it has an amazing load of bubka footage in slo and regular motion. you might catch something you didn't, before.