downswing?

[dheldr01]

Kirk,

I've read many post where your mention the downsing. I have searched for forums and apologize if this is a topic that's already been answered, but can you describe this phase of the vault for me and how to accomplish it effectively? Or post the link where I can read about it. I'm only looking for downswing information on this thread

Also, are there any other terms for downswing I may have heard of? I've never heard the term until I started reading on pvp

Thanks

[KirkB]

The downswing is a critical part of the vault that I was extremely effective in using in my Bryde Bend technique. It is a term that I coined, and if you've searched PVP for it, you will have seen that I emphasize it more than any other vaulter or coach.

Essentially, it's the part of your swing before your trail leg passes the chord of the pole. The counter-part to the downswing is the upswing, which ... naturally ... is the part of your swing AFTER the chord. When the trail leg passes the chord, we call that the "whip" ... altho the whip is not instantaneous. The whip really starts when the downswing starts. It's at its fastest at the chord, and then as your hips rotate and rise, the whip decelerates. So to answer your last question, some coaches refer to the downswing as the whip.

Other than my emphasis on the pre-stretch and downswing aspects of my vault, the rest of my Bryde Bend was essentially pure Petrov (tho Bubka is 14 years younger than me).

Every vaulter has a downswing ... no matter what technique they use. It's the vault part directly after the pre-stretch. Every vaulter SHOULD have a pre-stretch, so every vaulter SHOULD have ... and DOES have ... a downswing.

If you have a GOOD pre-stretch, you're able to have a GOOD downswing. If you have a POOR pre-stretch (or no pre-stretch at all), then your chances of having a GOOD downswing are significantly lessened, but you STILL do have a downswing. Why? Becuz no matter how far under you are on takeoff ... and no matter how poor your swing is ... you're ALWAYS behind the chord ... until you swing past it.

Thus, you ALWAYS have a downswing. The duration of the downswing is your moment of opportunity to accelerate your swing. If you wait until your trail leg passes the chord, then it's too late.

In the Bryde Bend, I had a very exaggerated pre-stretch. Thus, I set myself up for a very GOOD downswing. And by whipping the trail leg DOWN vigorously, I was able to generate a HUGE amount of power in my swing ... resulting in a very early inversion. In turn, the early inversion set me up for a very powerful extension.

This is the Intermediate Technique forum, so I'm not going to get into the details of the Bryde Bend ... that's already on the Elite Technique forum. But everything I've said thus far in this post ... and everything else that's discussed in subsequent posts ... are totally within the capabilities of an Intermediate vaulter.

For boys, I classify Intermediate as anyone that's roughly in the 4-5m range. I started to realize the power in my downswing when I was in the 15-foot range. YMMV. I wish I discovered the power of the downswing when I was in the 12-14 foot range. If you're in this range ... or even lower ... then it's not too early for you to learn this.

For girls, I'm not sure ... someone else can define that. But essentially, if you're capable of a pre-stretch, then you'd better learn how to turn that pre-stretch into a powerful swing, so you'd better figure out how that's done in the DOWNSWING!

Kirk

[ifavault]

Kirk,

Are there any video examples of what you would consider an aggressive and effective "downswing" as you describe it(whether it be beginner, intermediate, or advanced level vaulters)? Additionally, would it be possible to see video of what you feel is a more passive downswing for comparison? I know this concept was somewhat specific to your jump in your day and you don't have any video of yourself, but is there anyone you feel is doing it especially well in today's world that we can view to study a bit more? Thanks.

ifavault

[KirkB]

Are there any video examples of what you would consider an aggressive and effective "downswing" as you describe it (whether it be beginner, intermediate, or advanced level vaulters)?

I'll look for intermediates and/or beginners some other time, but for now, here's some elites ...

1. Bubka ... of course.

These are all from http://www.stabhochsprung.com ... which uses the QuickTime video format ... so you can step thru each frame with your arrow keys. These are in no particular order ...

2. Richard Spiegelburg. Altho he bends his trail leg a bit too much in the pre-stretch, he whips it thru quite well.
3. Brad Walker ... one of the best trail legs I've seen ... altho I consider his pike to be sub-optimal.
4. Swetlana Feofanova ... very nice, straight trail leg downswing!
5. Paul Burgess.
6. Monica Pyrek.
8. Dimitry Markov
9. Guiseppe Gibilisco ... I like him too!

Also:
10. Greg Duplantis. (Search for "Analysis of Greg Duplantis Videos".)

Actually there's not many elite vaulters that DON'T have a good downswing.

I'd even add Steve Hooker to this list ... his downswing is GOOD ... but I think that anyone that drops their lead knee is unable to get an OPTIMALLY powerful downswing. Not saying that his way is bad ... it's just different.

... would it be possible to see video of what you feel is a more passive downswing for comparison?

Isi. She has a nice pre-stretch, but surprisingly, she doesn't have a very powerful downswing. Odd that I would find such a major fault in the WR holder, but that's how I see it.

... is there anyone you feel is doing it especially well in today's world that we can view to study a bit more?

I've always been quite impressed with Feofanova's body posture and downswing.

I know this concept was somewhat specific to your jump in your day ...

On the contrary, I think this concept is totally relevant in today's Petrov Model ... even in any other model! If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't be emphasizing it so much on every other post!

So why did Isi take over the WR from Feofanova? Well ... Isi's taller for one thing ... I don't think it's becuz Isi has a better downswing!

Kirk

[KirkB]

An intermediate vaulter with a good downswing is Tyler Porter. Here's vids of him over 15-0 in January ...

http://www.youtube.com/user/TylerP0rter11#p/u/1/d15xJi1OIo0

... but I just got word in another thread that he cleared 16-7.25. Haven't seen the vid of that yet, but I'm betting that his downswing has gotten even better since this 15-0 vid.

Kirk

[dheldr01]

Okay here is my break down attempt...

As you drive your knee forward and your trail leg reachs behind you finishing the take off with a straight leg.

Meanwhile as your top hand feels the resistance of the plant box it stretchs behind the head pulling/adding energy into the pole

A straightline is formed from your shoulders to your hips as you center of mass moves towards the chord

This is the ideal position to set up the downswing

[KirkB]

Meanwhile as your top hand feels the resistance of the plant box it stretchs behind the head pulling/adding energy into the pole

Not pulling (the hand is not pulling - that implies some kind of contraction of muscles) ... the vaulter is pushing and squeezing ... but yes ... adding energy.

A straightline is formed from your shoulders to your hips as you center of mass moves towards the chord

When this straight line is formed, your downswing is over.

This is the ideal position to set up the downswing

THIS is the ideal position to set up a powerful downswing!

Bubka_Take-Off.jpg (45.67 KiB) Viewed 7315 times

I copied this from your pre-stretch thread. It shouldn't be called "Bubka_Take-Off" tho. It's AFTER the takeoff.

Kirk

[dheldr01]

At what point in this process do you begin to actively pull with the bottom hand?

[ifavault]

My 9 year old daughter is in gymnastics. She was telling me of a high bar drill she was doing called "fish flops" (Cute name).

From a hanging position you go back and forth from a "pre-stretch" extension and forward whip of the legs. Of course she's doing it with her legs together, but converted to a lead knee-drive position and a long trail-leg, this is likely one of the best training methods for voluntarily creating the downswing (can be performed on rings or high-bar).

Would you agree Kirk?

(However, this is likely why some female vaulters who have converted from Gymnastics develop the double-leg swing...too many early years going for that perfect 10.0)

The pre-stretch and downswing are obviously closely related: the weaker the pre-stretch after take-off, the less downswing a vaulter can create actively. Taking it one step further, the pre-stretch is reduced the further the take-off step is under, so getting the step on and/or "out" is a critical factor to all this. Just like all elements of the vault, once an athlete learns to bend a pole while still in contact with the gound, it is very difficult to change those neuro-muscular patterns, so start 'em on day one with a free take-off doing stiff pole work to make life easier in the future rather than having to break it down later to rebuild the foundation.

ifavault

[dheldr01]

I have been coaching the "fish flog" (that is a cute name) for a couple seasons now with a lead knee. I started doing them years ago in crossfit as a warm-up/precursor for a muscle up

[KirkB]

Would you agree Kirk?

I agree 100% with each and every point you made in your post, ifa.

To add to your points, I actually think it's a GOOD idea to get the double leg (fish flop) swing going ... really, really well ... before advancing to the more difficult "lead knee up" swing.

Rather than seeing it as a detriment to having learned the 2-legged fish flop first, I see it as a distinct advantage. Learn to walk, then learn to run.

Perhaps after YEARS AND YEARS of gym training, it might be hard to break that habit. But I don't think a vaulter can possibly do too many 2-legged swings in his first couple years of training for PV. I wouldn't phase out the 2-legged ones until maybe late in year 2 ... after the 1-legged swings have taken over really well.

As DH mentioned, they're also a good warmup exercise ... even for elites.

Kirk