Another Swing/Inversion Question.

[buonoxc]

I've been reading on this forum and I find it to be the best thing I can do as a vaulter with no coach. I am trying to conquer the "L" position and I wanted to get a little insight from you guys.

First I'll start with a little profile of me. My max height in vaulting is 13 feet using a 13ft mystic 150lb limit. I'm 5'6"(yes i know im short) and weigh 135. Bench max is 250 so i have good strength and my 100 meter dash is 11.4 so I have enough speed (and i usually book it down the runway). I've been out of highschool for a year but I want to give one last shot on fixing my vault so I can try and walk on in college.

I never got inverted I was always in more of an "L" shape I guess. I believe if I fix this I will be able to walk on and jump in college so I'm on a quest to do what ever it takes. I noticed kids at a meet the other day who get vertical really well and they are on 14-14'6" poles but they are only getting about 13-13'6". So I was thinking "man Im getting close to the same height on a smaller pole without getting vertical, if I fix this I might soar!"

Now from when I evaluated myself I noticed something that I was doing (or not doing) that I believe is the main culprit and wanted some insight to see if I'm on the right track. When I watched a replay of my vault I saw that I literally just picked up my trail leg and didnt swing it at all. I just sort of lifted it up to myself and expected my hips to follow I guess... From what I've been reading on here, I gather that this is a huge error in my jump. Could this be the main culprit in why I'm stuck in a "L" or "U". Should I be thinking "the more powerful the swing of the (straight)trail leg is, the better" ?

I started doing trail leg swings on the highbar where I run a little bit to get momentum, jump, grab the bar, create a the split position between my knee drive and my trail leg, and swing powerfully with a straight trail leg. After doing these drills I have developed an understanding of the concept that my trail leg needs to swing powerfully to get me upside down. Is this a correct concept in pole vaulting? I have applied this high bar drill to low grip pop ups and it seems to work well. On one of the pop ups I really focused on being aggressive with the swing of the trail leg and my legs sort of flew right up to the top of my pole. So am I on the right track of thinking "the more powerful the swing of the (straight)trail leg is, the better" ?

[master]

That sure sounds correct to me. Not only correct, but it also sounds like you have taken your first steps toward achieving your goal. I also agree that if you are successful with your focus, you will jump higher on the same poles and grip but will have what it takes to take a heavier/longer pole with a higher grip to vertical which will contribute more to your heights. Good luck.

[rainbowgirl28]

Do you know what college you want to walk-on at? I would talk to the coach there and see what they are looking for. You'll have a tough time walking on at a major DI powerhouse, but you should be able to walk on at some smaller schools. There is a lot of paperwork that has to be done (including you getting admitted as a student), and sometimes Title IX might limit how many male walk-ons a school can take. So NOW is the time to start talking to coaches if you want to go somewhere next year.

College track starts practice in the fall, so keep that in mind, some people don't realize that and think they can just show up in March and make the team.

[KirkB]

I've been reading on this forum ... ...

... I literally just picked up my trail leg and didnt swing it at all. I just sort of lifted it up to myself and expected my hips to follow I guess... From what I've been reading on here, I gather that this is a huge error in my jump. Could this be the main culprit in why I'm stuck in a "L" or "U". Should I be thinking "the more powerful the swing of the (straight)trail leg is, the better" ? ...

You got it!

... I started doing trail leg swings on the highbar where I run a little bit to get momentum, jump, grab the bar, create a the split position between my knee drive and my trail leg, and swing powerfully with a straight trail leg. After doing these drills I have developed an understanding of the concept that my trail leg needs to swing powerfully to get me upside down. Is this a correct concept in pole vaulting? ...

... So am I on the right track of thinking "the more powerful the swing of the (straight) trail leg is, the better"?

Yes! I suspect that you've already read some of the threads where I refer to the "downswing". Search for that word (no space between "down" and "swing". You'll see lots of hints where I talk about that. You've pretty much got it figured out. Now just get out there AND DO IT!

Kirk

[buonoxc]

Ok excellent I'm glad that I might be on the right track. I will be working on it this summer and I'm looking into going to one of Jan Johnson's camps. It was one of his old homemade looking videos (maybe called skylimits or something) that got me into vaulting in the first place.

What I've found is pole vaulting is kind of an unfair sport in high school. I made it to the state championship meet as a senior in high school and saw that about 80% of the other vaulters were all consulting the same guy. He was someone who ran camps and sessions all year long and there mats were able to be used all year long. The only time I could jump is when my school finally put the mats up and I still lacked the other luxuries such as pole selection. I had about 3 poles to chose from and none of them were well suited to me. Also having no coach at all is a big obstacle to overcome. I survived and gained knowledge by TONS of watching, asking, reading, and that old school Jan Johnson video. That is why I feel like if I can make it on a team I will have a a huge break through due to knowledgeable supervision, WAYYY more time to practice, and proper pole selection.

I have taken everything you said into account RainbowGirl. Unfortunately the school I will be going to is probably USF and I'm pretty sure their pole vaulting crew is strong. I know they have Vani but I don't think Kirk Dandridge is there anymore. I heard Vani has no heighted a few times and I suspected that could happen with him after watching his Florida state record jump. I noticed that he seemed to have a very weak drive for such an elite vaulter and he flipped to his back very early it seemed. So I'm a little curious about there actual vaulting coaches because it seems like an easy mistake to fix.

I dont know what it would take but I suspect that mid 14's to 15' would give me a shot. If I do attend one of Jan Johnson's camps I'm positive that my mistakes will have a good shot at being corrected and I believe I would have what it takes to make it (barring any title 9 things like you mentioned).

but even if I dont make it, it will be worth it to end my pole vaulting experience by taking a trip to Cali and seeing how much of my jump I can fix and how high I can get.

[rainbowgirl28]

Yeah either way you need to start talking to them now, let them know you are interested in walking on, and find out what they are looking for. There are also potentially numerous eligibility issues you could be dealing with. If you're in college now, your clock has started ticking, and they'll have to certify your classes and that you have the grades/are making progress toward graduation. If you took a year off between HS and college, you'll still have to go through Clearinghouse, etc.

Don't wait until summer to contact them. Start talking now.

[buonoxc]

Ok got it.

I have one another question regarding the the end of the swing phase. Is it supposed to feel like it is only the trail leg that is swinging long with power to get you upside down or is there a point during the swing where I should should start feeling myself rotating my drive knee back once it meets up with the trail leg i guess. I'm not quite sure how to explain what I'm thinking but I just realized that when my knee is bent and driving, I might swing (or inccorectly "bring") my trail leg up but I dont give any energy or focus to bringing my knee up back, or up, which might also contribute to my hips not flipping up with the swing.

[KirkB]

... Is it supposed to feel like it is only the trail leg that is swinging long with power to get you upside down or is there a point during the swing where I should should start feeling myself rotating my drive knee back once it meets up with the trail leg i guess. ...

There's 2 basic styles here ... a double leg swing, and a one-legged swing. Bubka does it one-legged ... Hooker does it somewhat two-legged. I did one-legged, and my personal belief is that that's the best technique. However, several recent world-class vaulters ... including Hooker ... are showing us that a double leg swing can work quite well. There's a thread on that - search for "lead knee retrospective".

The problem with the two-legged swing ... especially for high schoolers ... is that they lack the core strength to swing/raise both legs up together ... it's hard enough to swing just one leg up. The legs absolutely need to get above the hips BEFORE the pole unbends. Or "just as" the pole starts to unbend. Most vaulters don't get inverted soon enough, so they can't "stay ahead of the pole". To shoot "up" the pole, you need to stay ahead of it ... and that's tough to do if you need to swing BOTH legs up. Not impossible ... just harder than with only one leg.

Assuming a one-legged swing, the lead knee should keep moving forwards and upwards. Then, as you invert, you need to start extending both legs together (called a "Bubka"), into an inverted "I" position.

If you drive the lead knee forward on takeoff, and get into a good pre-stretch ... as you said you're practicing it on the highbar ... then whip the trail leg down and forwards, you need to prevent your lead knee from dropping. All the power of the whip comes from the long trail leg. The only "power" that your lead leg gives you is the initial takeoff drive, and then maybe later, after you pass the chord, when you quickly extend both legs upwards. So ... trail leg only.

Kirk

[buonoxc]

Ok thanks Kirk, I understand. What you said sounds very similar to what I've been recently hearing from alan launder on youtube. It makes sense to me. I have seen someone do a very elite jump (18ish feet) with a double leg swing and I was skeptical because it seemed work quite well for him and he penetrated perfectly. I actually suspected exactly what you said, which is it could work but would require tremendous ab strength. The only thing I am left confused on is Bubka's pop up drills. I have seen a video on youtube of him doing pop up drills (something tells me you probably know which one I'm talking about) where he sort of drops his lead knee and swings both legs.

[KirkB]

... I have seen a video on youtube of him doing pop up drills ... where he sort of drops his lead knee and swings both legs.

Sure, but that's just a drill. Actually, steel vaulters swung with both legs, so that's what Bubka's drill was doing. And you probably noticed that he had no trouble swinging BOTH his legs up! For mere mortals, I recommend a one-legged swing.

Kirk

[buonoxc]

I thought I'd give an update.

Well I progressed big time and it all came at once. I was as straight as a pencil and for the first time I felt myself shoot upward at the end of the vault. I was getting shot up like I imagine I am supposed to. So I'll let you know what I personally needed to do to achieve this. I have been practicing on a little mystic pole under my weight just doing sort of pop up drills. I just took a 3 step medium paced jog, planted high, drove in and waited then swung up hard and try to get vertical. Thats what I have been doing the past week because it's easy and safe to do on my own and I figure its a decent little drill do work on getting the position I wanted. I had a friend with me and he knew nothing about pole vaulting, but he watched and told me how vertical I was getting and comparing each one to the last. He said "do you want to look like a pencil? is That how straight you're trying to get?" I told him "yea". So he was watching and he said Im not totally straight my hips are still kinda sagging low. Then on the next one he said to me "It looks like your almost there when you swning up but you just need to do a pelvic thrust or something" lol. So I thought about it and was thinking he might be right. At the end of my swing my body usually feels like its done doing work and i just hang on for the rest of the vault. So the next jump I planted good swung up strong then the magic happened when I "pelvic thrusted" which was more like shooting my hips up or extending with my legs(similar to doing an ab exercise where you lay on your back and shoot your legs up which in turn raises your hips up above you). After I did it I realized that that was the ingredient I was looking for and now that I've done it I have a lot more understanding what muscles were involved in doing it. My abs were aching a little afterwords and I welcomed the feeling because I knew that it probably meant it I was doing it right. Also my top arm started getting exhausted because after I swing, shoot the hips up and extend vertically, the pole was shooting me up and setting me in the proper way to push off at the end with my top arm.