staying behind the pole?

[H.I.S.]

Could some people please clarify exactly what staying behind the pole means and how to excute this and why?

Or if you disagree and believe you should not stay behind the pole and why?

I have read many people (almost everyone I think) promote staying behind the pole and just a few promote staying with or infront of the pole.

I absolutely see the benefit of how staying behind the pole keeps you in great position to swing, but what other factors promote this technique and what are the cons, or pros for staying with the pole?

Is it the concept "you should vault the same way on a bending pole as you do on a stiff pole"? If so i've read many people say you should stay behind the pole on a stiff pole as well?

Also, on a bending pole, when you are told to stay behind the pole does it refer to the actual pole or the chord of the pole?

Thank you for any and all of your comments!

[Thats.What.She.Said]

Could some people please clarify exactly what staying behind the pole means and how to excute this and why?

Or if you disagree and believe you should not stay behind the pole and why?

I have read many people (almost everyone I think) promote staying behind the pole and just a few promote staying with or infront of the pole.

I absolutely see the benefit of how staying behind the pole keeps you in great position to swing, but what other factors promote this technique and what are the cons, or pros for staying with the pole?

Is it the concept "you should vault the same way on a bending pole as you do on a stiff pole"? If so i've read many people say you should stay behind the pole on a stiff pole as well?

Also, on a bending pole, when you are told to stay behind the pole does it refer to the actual pole or the chord of the pole?

Thank you for any and all of your comments!

yes it does mean staying behind the chord of the pole so it is the same idea on a bending pole as it is on a stiff pole, just one's stiff and one's bending.
its execution is as simple as not swinging, just get arms up, drive knee up, and trail leg back, but dont whip the trail leg through
that's the point of it - to set up the swing. if you dont do it then you virtually arent swinging, just getting swept under and up. this would explain why you think that you are swing but cant get past parallel to the bar.
yes you should stay behind a stiff pole too because you need to set that swing up too, dont you?

[KirkB]

In this thread (Film from my second last high school meet): http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=18280&p=130513 3P0 and I discuss "staying AHEAD of the pole". That's the inverse of what you're asking about. Maybe we have it wrong ... maybe you have it wrong ... I dunno.

You may be thinking of "staying behind the pole" as the physical position of your body in relation to the pole. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's it. Rather, it's the state of the coil and recoil of the pole in relation to the timing of your swing and extension. At least that's the way I think about it. So you want to stay AHEAD of the TIMING of the pole. In other words, you want to be ready to extend when the pole begins to recoil.

If you get BEHIND the timing of the pole, then you're not going to be ready when the pole recoils. If you're not inverted sufficiently to extend WITH the pole (i.e. in unison with the recoil of the pole), then you're going to lose a lot of energy by "muscling up" to "catch up" to the pole. Whenever you use your muscles (rather than swinging) to invert rather, there's energy loss ... big time! That's why you want to stay AHEAD of the pole ... also referred to as "covering the pole"

A couple quotes from that thread ... to give you an idea of the context within which we refer to "staying AHEAD of the pole" (underlined) ...

I think that pole brings some serious heat for you! You can hardly get back in time before it launches you! When you do all this high bar work, apply it with a softer pole but the same grip to feel how when you swing correctly the pole just rolls right over and you end up in line with it very quickly! It's important to work ahead of the pole which you are trying to do, clearly, in the video. But that head thrown back gives the pole a chance to get the "first strike" on you... and after that its going to be hard to catch up with it.

... and ...

... Do you think that one of the reasons that I'm behind the pole (other then throwing my head back) is because I have no trail leg? It seems that a strong whip and down-swing would keep the pole bent for longer and delay the recoil. As well as make me invert faster.

Definitely! You're not putting any energy into the pole at all ... other than the power generated from your run/takeoff ... so that's why you're on light poles, and that's why the pole gets ahead of you. You may not even realize you're doing this, but subconciously, you're tucking too early in an attempt to catch up to the pole. That's the wrong approach, and you need to break yourself of that habit by FORCING yourself to swing with a long trail leg ... every jump. To do this, you need to temporarily get onto some softer poles ... until you get the hang of it.

Then ... a strong whip WILL keep the pole bent for a longer time, which will give you more time to invert. And yes, you WILL invert faster.

But it's not that you want to delay the bend. Rather, you want to stay ahead of the pole (i.e. invert before the pole recoils) ...

[H.I.S.]

Then how long should you stay behind the pole?

If you want to stay behind the pole at take off and ahead of the pole at the recoil is the swing when you work ahead?

[KirkB]

I've said that I'm not positive that my definition (and 3P0's) is the correct one, but if it is, then ...

Then how long should you stay behind the pole?

You need to stay AHEAD of the pole ... during the entire swing ... so that the pole doesn't recoil before you're ready for it to recoil.

If you want to stay behind the pole at take off and ahead of the pole at the recoil is the swing when you work ahead?

Provided that my definition is correct, then you've got this wrong. You need to ALWAYS stay ahead of the pole. It does so happen that the pole recoils once you pass the chord, so I can see how the other interpretation ... to say BEHIND the pole ... can be used. As soon as your CoM passes the chord, then the pole's going to start recoiling. If your CoM isn't close to the pole then (i.e. your hips ... near your CoM ... aren't tight to the pole) ... and if your hips aren't above your shoulders then, you're in trouble. This is the dreaded "flat back" position that tuck/shooters often get stuck in. The pole has "gotten ahead of them", so they must "muscle up" to complete their inversion. Otherwise, the uncoiling of the pole will cause their upper body to rise ... and their lower body to fall. When this happens, you usually have no choice but to bail.

So if you want to be ahead of the pole when it recoils, then you need to stay ahead of it (time-wise) for the entire swing.

I hope someone else can explain this better than I can.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

Stay behind (position) the pole itself. How else will you move it efficiently?

Stay ahead (timing) of the bend of the pole. How else will you come off of it efficiently?

[KYLE ELLIS]

Staying behind the pole to most people means blocking off with your left arm. However when you block with your left arm, that arm acts as a hinge and forces your body/ trail leg to start swinging forward. Staying behind the pole will come natural if you are elastic at the shoulders. This will allow all the pressure to go into the top hand until the top arm is stretched really far behind you, your trail leg will keep moving backwards as long as your top hand does. So if you block and recieve all the pressure into your bottom hand and it will act as a hinge.

How long do you want to stay behind the pole? Well the greatest vaulter of all time states that he tried to swing right after the takeoff!! But if you watch Bubka he stays behind the pole for a while before he swings because he is allowing the pressure to go into his top hand, and once it does he begins an agressive swing. As soon as you feel the pressure in your top hand, this is when you should swing. This goes back to the continous chain method of vaulting were there is a flow through out the vault. This isn't possible if you are trying to wait behind the pole before you swing. Watch Bubka, there are no pauses.

Basically what you want to feel is jumping into a very deep open position with the chest up, and once you feel the pressure in your top hand you swing fast! The swing is a whole other concept for a different thread. But I will say this you want to swing your entire body, and you do not want to just swing your trail leg.

[H.I.S.]

That makes perfect sense to me

Now I have this question, when and how should your CoM pass the chord?

[powerplant42]

As soon as your trail-leg passes through the chord, your COM is slightly in front of the chord.

But think about the same question, but instead on a stiff pole... Do you think it would change from the flexible pole? How? Why? When? Where?

Trying to get you to get there yourself.

[vault3rb0y]

I think staying behind the pole is the answer to a question. That question is "How can i move the pole to vertical with the highest possible grip?" Part of the answer is staying behind the pole.

You do it to make sure your hips are not swinging too freely and prematurely underneath your body.

Picture a pop-up with a stiff-pole vault, no bend whatsoever....With a 2-pendulum system, until the pole reaches a certain high angle with the ground, swinging your body underneath your top hand will not help in moving the pole to vertical. In fact, it hurts the pole from moving to vertical(this is because as soon as you have finished the swing, the pole stops moving. so swinging before the pole is already moving on its own will hurt the rotation of the pole). The way to stay behind the pole is by pushing both up and out with your hands after take off, specifically using your lat muscles. Push just enough to keep your hips behind the pole, but not so much that your arms are rigid and your hips are sticking out behind you. Keeping your hips under your hands is the idea for this drill, and its biomechanically the best way to move a pole to vertical.

Now... that drill is specific for the take off. Until you can master this action, any swing will be premature and not add the most amount of energy or move the pole to vertical as efficiently as possible. BUT... once you have mastered staying behind the pole, it is important to realize that you NEVER wait in an actual vault by staying behind the pole- you are constantly swinging, but you only swing once you have left the ground and have stayed behind the pole/ finished your take off properly. This means being "behind the pole". There is a change in intent and in your action in the vault once you leave the ground, and it's very important to realize this difference. Talking about the intent while inverting is a whole other story than intent before you leave the ground.

[vault3rb0y]

Then how long should you stay behind the pole?

If you want to stay behind the pole at take off and ahead of the pole at the recoil is the swing when you work ahead?

To answer your questions specifically, after reading what i wrote above, you should answer it yourself but it would be IMO....

To the first question, In the stiff vault drill, stay behind the pole the entire time. Dont try to swing, just try to avoid your hips passing under your shoulders. In an actual vault (only after mastering the idea of staying behind the pole) only stay behind the pole until you finish your take off with your trail leg behind you and your hips still centered over your shoulders.

And to the second question- YES! The idea in an actual vault is all about adding the most energy possible, so finishing the take off and staying behind the pole for a fraction of a second should add all the energy of your take off into the vault. From there... you immediately begin an agressive swing and continue to swing until you are fully inverted. If you hesitate or slow your swing in any way, the pole will stop moving as effectively and you won't be inverted in time.

[H.I.S.]

On a stiff pole, I feel like I have to delay my swing, or maybe it just feels like to takes longer to finish my take off. . .

Today while jumping I was able to start my swing immediately after take off without any pause or hesitation. I was able to feel part of my vaulting very clearly, probably because my steps weren't a foot under every jump today.

felt like my CoM was behind the chord before I started my swing, and immediately after i started to swing I passed the chord and was way ahead of the timing. I was completely inverted and turned before the pole finished the recoil.

After playing with a few jumps I noticed this . . .

When I kept my hips behind the chord it really set up for a strong swing, but when I let my hips work with the chord before the swing I was able to invert a lot easier, but didn't feel as much power in the swing,

To keep my hips behind the chord I was really trying to penetrate with my chest, when I let my hips work with the chord I kept my chest aligned with my hips leading with my knee

When I focused on leading with my chest I got great(maybe too much penetration) jumping 13 ft on a 13 ft 170 with 30in standards

When I kept my chest and hips straight I was jumping 13'6 ALMOST 14 on the same pole with 20in standards

I didn't have a crossbar up for my jumps on 14ft poles but on all of those jumps I penetrated with my chest because I felt more confident that way,

So my question is now does "when should your body pass the chord?" become an opinion?
Does a bigger pole mean more than jumping efficiency?
Or am I still missing something?

Do I need to adjust my timing/jump to incorporate some type of middle ground?