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I've been reading a lot on the importance of a free take off and how when using the Petrov model, it is ideal to use your bottom arm simply for balance, and not to push. Using this knowledge, my plant and takeoff has improved a great deal over a few months but it could always use some work.

Do I have this straight:
1) Lower the pole and get your hands above your head in takeoff position on time to avoid a late plant.
2) Just before the pole hits the back of the box, JUMP forward/up, while reaching up with your top hand and using the bottom for balance.

I try to do this but my bottom arm still collapses somewhat in the shape of a "L" when the pole hits the back of the box. My bottom arm used to collapse so much that it was directly in front of my face, so I used to focus on pushing out with the bottom arm, which of course, made things worse. Then when I learned what you were supposed to do, it gradually improved and I was moving up on new poles faster than ever.

I know I should not lock my bottom arm nor push with it, however I think I'm losing energy when it collapses. I've read every thread I could find but every one basically says don't push with the bottom arm. Any help? Thanks.

How high is your grip and how tall are you? The way your bottom arm looks is going to be heavily influenced by the angle of the pole.

I think I've seen Bubka get fiberfaced on many a vault... In fact, I KNOW I have. Personally, I would stop worrying about it and focus on harnessing the pre-stretch you've created by 'getting' your trail-leg and top hand 'back'.

quick wrote: ... the importance of a free take off and how when using the Petrov model, it is ideal to use your bottom arm simply for balance, and not to push. Using this knowledge, my plant and takeoff has improved a great deal over a few months but it could always use some work.

Do I have this straight:
1) Lower the pole and get your hands above your head in takeoff position on time to avoid a late plant.
2) Just before the pole hits the back of the box, JUMP forward/up, while reaching up with your top hand and using the bottom for balance.

Quick ... yes, you understand this correctly. This is such a commonly asked question ... and such a commonly misunderstood technique ... particularly your question re the bottom arm collapsing ... that I'm summarizing it here ... by referencing the links to the threads that talk about it ... in case you or anyone else missed any threads about this.

Here's the ones I've participated in during the past year. This list is in reverse-chronological order.

Intermediate Technique -- Need to fix the face-plants into the pole http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=17360&p=126531&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=126531

Video Review -- I Need Input! http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17294&p=124020&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=124020

Video Review -- No Coach at National Prelims... http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17151&p=123881&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=123881

Training -- The One-Arm Drill http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16809&p=123497&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=123497

Beginning Technique -- HELP HElp HElp http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=17176&p=123374&hilit=bottom+collapse#p123374

Advanced Technique -- Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad? http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=16585&p=121537&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=121537

Intermediate Technique -- Semantics and Collapsing the Bottom Arm http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16124&p=119731&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=119731

Advanced Technique -- The Bryde Bend (Jump to the Split) http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15483&p=116460&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=116460

Intermediate Technique -- Drills to help with the breaking of bottom arm http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=15995&p=115823&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=115823

Kirk

Ah sorry, double post.

rainbowgirl28 wrote:How high is your grip and how tall are you? The way your bottom arm looks is going to be heavily influenced by the angle of the pole.

Grip is about 13' on a 13'7".
Height is about 5'7".

powerplant42 wrote:I think I've seen Bubka get fiberfaced on many a vault... In fact, I KNOW I have. Personally, I would stop worrying about it and focus on harnessing the pre-stretch you've created by 'getting' your trail-leg and top hand 'back'.

Since my plant has improved over the past few months and it's not a killer downfall in my jump anymore, I realize that it may not be a serious problem. It would seem that by my arm collapsing from the force of impact, I'm losing energy. However, I understand that I could be wrong, which is why I'm asking.

KirkB wrote:Quick ... yes, you understand this correctly. This is such a commonly asked question ... and such a commonly misunderstood technique ... particularly your question re the bottom arm collapsing ... that I'm summarizing it here ... by referencing the links to the threads that talk about it ... in case you or anyone else missed any threads about this.

Here's the ones I've participated in during the past year. This list is in reverse-chronological order.

Intermediate Technique -- Need to fix the face-plants into the pole http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=17360&p=126531&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=126531

Video Review -- I Need Input! http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17294&p=124020&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=124020

Video Review -- No Coach at National Prelims... http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=17151&p=123881&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=123881

Training -- The One-Arm Drill http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16809&p=123497&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=123497

Beginning Technique -- HELP HElp HElp http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=17176&p=123374&hilit=bottom+collapse#p123374

Advanced Technique -- Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad? http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=16585&p=121537&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=121537

Intermediate Technique -- Semantics and Collapsing the Bottom Arm http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=16124&p=119731&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=119731

Advanced Technique -- The Bryde Bend (Jump to the Split) http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=15483&p=116460&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=116460

Intermediate Technique -- Drills to help with the breaking of bottom arm http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=15995&p=115823&hilit=bottom+collapse#p=115823

Kirk

Thanks for the links. Some of them look familiar, some I haven't read yet. I'll reread all of them. Thanks so much.

Thanks again guys.

quick wrote: It would seem that by my arm collapsing from the force of impact, I'm losing energy. However, I understand that I could be wrong, which is why I'm asking.

Yeh, your thinking is wrong on this. If you use your bottom arm just for balance, then there's no "force of impact" or "loss of energy" to worry about.

So I don't really understand your concern.

Kirk

KirkB wrote:

quick wrote: It would seem that by my arm collapsing from the force of impact, I'm losing energy. However, I understand that I could be wrong, which is why I'm asking.

Yeh, your thinking is wrong on this. If you use your bottom arm just for balance, then there's no "force of impact" or "loss of energy" to worry about.

So I don't really understand your concern.

Kirk

Hmm, I've never thought of it like that. It doesn't make sense to worry about a loss of energy if the bottom arm collapses, if the bottom arm just balances.

I guess I was over analyzing my jumps. Thanks, you learn something new everyday.




I went through the first three threads and I already found loads of information:
http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtop ... e#p=115823

powerplant42 wrote:You will not find anything mentioning 'breaking' the arm in Petrov's speech at the 1985 European Coaches' Congress, most likely nothing in the 'manifesto' thread, nor anything in BTB2 (that I recall...). This is because it is unimportant. It is a natural movement if you are swinging correctly with the right grip and pole. My guess would be that you are dropping your lead knee and leaving it there (ie. NOT like Lukyanenko, Hooker, etc.) on a pole that is too stiff for you.

KirkB wrote:If you focus on what your top hand and arm should be doing, and make sure you have a high plant, drive the chest in, and just use the bottom hand/arm for balance, that's really all there is to it.

lonestar wrote:Also, emphasize pushing both hands upwards (12 o'clock) as you plant and letting your shoulders go "elastic" so that your chest penetrates forward and you could draw a vertical line straight down from your bottom hand to your forehead to your chest as you are leaving the ground. Alan Launder refers to this as a "disengaged" left arm in BTB2. Earl Bell calls it "hitting the pocket." Some just call it chest penetration, while others call it "driving." Not a position to hold for any length of time, but an instantaneous stretch on the shoulders and hips which causes a reflex action of swinging upside down, much like drawing back a bow-and-arrow and releasing it.

http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtop ... e&start=12

KirkB wrote:You also shouldn't be striving to "stay upright" by pushing with your bottom arm. That's the wrong intent. Instead, you need to jump up and into the pole at an angle that will retain this good forward lean (good body posture) after takeoff. If you read my comments re Feofanova then you now understand the importance of good body posture after takeoff ... up to and including in the C position.

Don't be fooled by thinking they're straightening their bottom arm by intent. They’re not … it's just that their holding onto the pole, so as the pole bends out of the way of their bottom arm, their arm naturally follows. This is the opposite of what you're thinking. The bend is occurring because of the force applied into the pole from the TOP ARM … and ONLY the top arm (well, OK, maybe a little thru the bottom arm … depending on particular vault STYLES).

http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtop ... e#p=123881

KirkB wrote:While I appreciate that you absolutely know that you should not block out (your tagline declares this!), I suspect that you're already "doing too much" with your bottom arm. Done right, you really shouldn't even have to worry about the bottom arm, because the pole will bend from the pressure of the top arm only. You've read all the threads, so you know this.

I strongly recommend that you NOT go down the path of "stiffening up" your bottom arm. That's NOT where your problem lies. If you feel that you're getting "fiber-faced", there's other ways to fix that. And in fact, the collapse of the bottom arm really isn't a bad thing. It's your BODY POSTURE on takeoff that's important. You just have to trust that ... if done properly ... the pole WILL BEND ... out of the way of your face!

I have exams so I'll read the rest tomorrow and quote the key ideas that I've read. Thanks a bunch. This thread has definitely changed my approach to the bottom arm collapsing.

In the ideal vault, the bottom arm doesnt collapse and relax. It would be extremely difficult for your ONE shoulder to hold a big enough pole as it moves to vertical, even with a free take off. If you can think of your bottom arm as simply helping your top arm to keep the pole in front of you at take off, it might do what it needs to. Ever do a "Row" during a lifting session? Laying down and moving a weight with your arms straight, back behind your head? These are the muscles you engage with BOTH hands during the plant. Now try that same weight with just your top hand... and it probably feels a little like your plant does right now. I hope that helps a little .

Sorry.... one more thing. These are the feelings once the pole hits the back of the box.

But before the pole hits the back, in a free take off you can have your top hand over your head and THEN begin these motions as the pole hits the back. But before this point, Your intent is changed. You dont want to waste energy by slamming the pole into the box, and so you dont want to "Row" or "Push" the pole before you are off the ground. This is so essential that you will sometimes see bubka getting "fiber-faced" as you stated before. He realized he was under a big and moved his hands backwards to still achieve a free take-off, IMHO.


I only say this because its important to realize that when on the ground, your intentions are different with your hands than off the ground. I didnt want you slamming the pole into the box and rowing immediately. It's almost cushioning the pole into the box. Also realize there is a difference between using your "rowing" or "Pushing" muscles, and ACTUALLY rowing the pole. Don't actually move the pole, just engage these muscles. Dont let your top hand come past your head at any point in the swing.

Now I don't want to get growled at, but I think it might be worth briefly analyzing this jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYaBPDTrVuI

Bubka CLEARLY gets fiberfaced.

Is this the result of other problems, or a problem to be dealt with by itself?

I think it is the result of other problems. I think that Bubka saves this only due to his strength/speed/beastliness.

No?

But what problems might cause this? It's unfortunate that more of the jump is not shown...

Disappointed in you AGAIN PP42. That clip shows Bubka doing exactly what he always intended to do -ensure that the left arm did not get in the way of him continuing the take off phase - it is a continuation of the FREE take off - with the free meaning that nothing stopped him driving the chest up and through the shoulders. Look at the fantastic p[oisition he is now in to execute the second phase of energy input. CF Lauren Eley in the book and dvd!!!!!!

If THAT is what folk term fibre facing - it is not a not a fault but an example of great modern technique. Take some time to revisit BTB before you leap old son!