Using the bend

[dmoo49]

Hey PVP. I need some help with an issue I wasn't able to resolve through the search box. I am currently a Junior and just started vaulting this year. I weight about 150 and am using a 155 13' spirit. My handgrip is at about 11' and I'm currently using a 7 step from 83'. With the help of my friend who currently vaults 14' I've been able to quickly learn the basics and start bending the pole with a tall plant and a strong trail leg.

The problem I am having now is that I turn too early and release the pole, finishing my vault, while the pole is unbending. We have taken me back to pop-up 3 step runs and I can extend well here with a good turn but once I move back to a full run I have issues with rocking back and maintaining that position until the pole has unbent. My PR is 9'6 but I'm beginning to shoot over 11'+ bungies in practice and with districts quickly approaching (12'1 to qualify for state ) any help I could get would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[powerplant42]

You need MASSIVE strength to 'maintain that position' and still get a good vault. It wastes time and energy.

Instead, SWING and keep swinging and keep swinging! There should be no 'rockback', just a swing and redirection of the swing (which you can only do with a good swing, so let's focus on THAT first).

It would be WELL worth staying away from poles that bend though... for a while at least. You'll learn to vault with a flexible pole more easily if you learn to vault with a stiff pole first.

[dmoo49]

Well an issue I seemed to having was keeping my legs pointed upward as to direct the force coming out of the bend. I would lower my feet early and get shot out by the pole. Is maintaining the swing all there is to it because it seems pretty hard to imitate what had been so easy on a pop up.

[powerplant42]

The energy from the bend is not what's important... The energy from the swing, IS.

This is why I strongly suggest taking a few months (years would be better, but this isn't the bloc ) to learn how to vault with a stiff pole.

[bel142]

Now understand that it is "pole vaulting" not pole bending, so the ultimate goal is jump bars. However, we live in a world of modern pole vault where the bend of the pole is used to make those bars. If you are starting to bend the pole, along with the rest of your training you need to learn how to use the bend.

I disagree with the above saying its all about the swing, once you are inverted on the pole and the pole is unbending. You need to be able to transfer the energy from the pole into vertical height. Yes training with a stiff pole can help you learn how to maintain position on the pole, but really once you learn how to bend a pole the next step needs to be sharpening all of you skills and learning how to use the bend for your advantage.

there is a very specific reason why the world record was only like 4 meters in the very early 1900s because of the very stiff pole they could use. The more energy you can transfer from vaulter to pole --> then pole back to vaulter more height will ensue...

train with all methods learning how to get more energy back from the pole.

[KirkB]

PP, how does your swing/bend/technique compare to what you're recommending to Dmoo?

It seems to me that your grip is probably not too much higher than his ... so when you were healthy ... are you practicing what you're preaching?

It seems to me that you're both at the point where you should begin learning how to handle the bend of the pole.

PP, you may be slightly ahead of Dmoo in your experience, so maybe you can advise him on how you're making (or have made) this transition?

It would help Dmoo (and others) if you actually explain your experience in this transition ... rather than just quoting something you read in BTB2 ... about how is should be done ... in THEORY.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

I find that it is easier to swing on a stiff pole... You FEEL it more than you do with a flexible pole, which, at this point in technical development, is critical! The rigidness of the bar is much like the rigidness of a stiff pole... So yes, I feel/felt that it is/was easier to make the transition from bar to stiff pole short runs, then from stiff pole short runs to flexible pole short runs, then to flexible pole full runs.

[KirkB]

PP, can you give us some metrics? How high was your grip for stiff poling? Then how high for flex vaulting? ... compared to Dmoo's 11-0 grip.

I can give you my metrics ...

10-6 PR on a 10-0 steel pole ... then 12-0 the next year on a fiberglass pole (I don't remember my grip, but it was likely in the 11-6 to 12-0 range).

My metrics aren't particularly helpful ... since I don't remember my grip ... and since I didn't have a flexible pole until AFTER my "soph" HS year, I was forced to use steel. But today, how high do you think your grip should go up before you start flex vaulting? How high was it for you? And did you feel that you had to "hold yourself back" to learn stiff vaulting first, or what? Since flex vaulting is "more fun", doesn't that require a lot of self-discipline? How did you (or should you) handle that?

And what about the jolt on takeoff that stiff vaulting gives you? That was the biggest difference for me, which allowed me to immediately raise my grip.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

Unfortunately, I did not start my career the way I hope others will... Do as I say, not as I do (or DID)! I was fixed on bending the pole, a bottom arm, getting inverted, and all that stuff.

I had an opportunity to start someone off the way I think it should be done... We did months of stiff poling in the sand and work on the track before he even touched a real pit. I would have had him barring all the time too had I had it built back then. I might have introduced him to a box and foam pit earlier had we been allowed to use it, but it turned out to probably be better for his long term development that he didn't. I'm not letting him take any short cuts, but I'm also not trying to be a 'bloc' coach! There has to be fun in practice, so I did let him play around with a flexible pole in the sand a little bit AFTER he had started to really execute things properly with the stiff pole.

As for my metrics... All I know is that currently (with my hip/spine/hamstring problem) I have a 2 step Jagodin stiff pole grip of ~11'3". That's all I know, sorry!

I think that even in the idealized situation, there is still not a 'set grip' that one must get to before they start to use a flexible pole, but rather the coach must make the decision based on technical advancements that the athlete has made. What if they're really fast/strong? See what I'm saying? It's really all about the ART of coaching, right? It can be scientific, but I think that switching from stiff poling to flex poling is more of an abstract call. (It might be worth mentioning though that there was some coach somewhere in Russia, I'm sorry that I can't remember his name, I think it started with 'Y', didn't let his athletes touch a pole they could bend until they could jump 12' with a stiff pole... But I still think that that approach is too generalized. What if the athlete's athleticism is extremely high/low? ABSTRACT call...)

[KirkB]

Unfortunately, I did not start my career the way I hope others will... Do as I say, not as I do (or DID)! I was fixed on bending the pole, a bottom arm, getting inverted, and all that stuff.

Yeh, I pushed with my bottom arm in HS too. I didn't know any better ... that's the way that John Pennel broke the WR, so who was I to argue?

What's YOUR excuse?

I'm not trying to give you a bad time ... what I really mean is that today, with all this info on PVP ... and with the BTB2 book ... and even having its author - Altius - posting clarifications on this site ... there's really no excuse in this day and age for anyone to get off on the wrong track (like us).

IMHO, young vaulters are just too anxious to try to vault high by bending the pole IMMEDIATELY. BAD IDEA!

Stick to the basics ... and take your time as your body gets stronger and more coordinated ... don't worry about how high you jump in your first year of vaulting ...

1. Sand vaulting
2. Highbar and rings
3. Stiff pole vaulting until your grip gets into the ~9-11 foot range (for males - this depends on a lot of factors)
4. Slight bend - always use a pole above your weight (except maybe short runs)
5. Then start learning how to harness the power of the bend

Kirk

[powerplant42]

I had a paradigm shift when I first met altius. That little nudge in the right direction was all I needed!

Many vaulters are exactly like my brainchild, Fred... and they may not even ever hear about PVP or BTB2 or whatever, because they don't actively try to find multiple perspectives on vaulting. They just listen to what their coach and better vaulters in the area have to say, which is typically misguided (in my experience). That was me, at least. I consider myself VERY lucky.

So I guess my excuse is laziness/ignorance/naivity.

IMHO, young vaulters are just too anxious to try to vault high by bending the pole IMMEDIATELY. BAD IDEA!

I was talking with one PVP member a while ago (who still has yet to make a post) who's coach was having her (a brand new vaulter) go from 8 lefts... She claimed that 'the other girl got it that way', and that she thought that was the best way to jump 6' or something like that.

We have ~5 new threads per month in either the 'video review' forum or the 'beginning' or 'intermediate' (which I feel is misplaced) technique forums on 'how to get inverted', 'how to bend the pole', 'how to use the bend', or something similarly oriented. But these are people that are not being apathetic or lazy! Yes, they might be ignorant of the truth that lies in the Petrov model, but we can't blame them if they were being naive and listening to whatever info they came upon! How should they know?

We have a serious problem that needs to be taken care of. But human nature gets in the way... Emotion clouds logic! Loyalty is the enemy of truth! "Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand!"

[dmoo49]

I appreciate all of the advice you guys are giving me. I see where you're coming from but I am still having trouble seeing a practical way to transition the skills I gain from stiff poling into my full vault. To the best of my knowledge, my 2-3 step runs are from a handgrip of 9-9.5 feet and with no poles above 155 it is become hard for me to not bend the pole. I am not pushing with my bottom arm nor am I pulling with my top. I guess what I need to take from this is that learning to carry my momentum out of the bend is a skill I will develop with repetition and application, not something that can be learned through reading. Correct me if I'm wrong