Pole Pushing: Petrov Perfected?

[VaultPurple]

I know Im going to get a lot of arguments aginst this, I even have some of my own, but I really wanted to discuss the pros and cons of pole pushing. I have always been one to argue against pole pushing except in drills, but today I was doing a straight pole drill by seeing how high I could hold and still make it on the matt, but I was pushing the pole so I could see when to jump (This drill is in B2B to see what your max potenital is). The most I have ever done with this drill carying the pole is about 10'10 and that is about where I "should" take off with my 13'3ish hand grip. But today I did the drill after I had done all of my full 8 step vaults and was able to manage to hold a little over 12' by pushing the pole (4 lefts). Because I began to hold so much higher than normal I decided to just joke around and grab one of my small practice poles (13' 150), I moved back about 6 inches and moved my hands up to 12'6. When I Jumped I was suprised by how easy the pole went In and bent, I had also taken off about an inch out. After blowing through my practice poles I went and grabed one of my warm up poles for my longger runs (13'7 150). I was able to jump into the pit but felt I would be more comfortable from 5 lefts so I moved back. I put the bungey up at 13, pushed standards back to 90cm and cleard it like it was nothing.

What amazed me the most was that I was able to use my 7 or 8 step pole, from a 5 step and clear 8 inches under my PR. I was also able to hit a free if not pre take jump on every vault.

So I want to see what everyone has to say about pros and cons of straight poling

PRO
Gets rid of hassle of lowering the pole
You can run faster (may be argued by some but I feel I was faster and all coaches said I looked faster)
Almost guarented to have a free take off due to the fast that if you are under and have not put bottom arm on pole yet you will get your arm ripped off
I found it easier to Jump up at take off
More aerodynamic and wind does not affect pole as much as it would if it was sticking 20 foot up in the air.
Its also easier to teach begineers because you dont have to worry about them missing the box.

CONS
Having to keep pole tip straight as it slides down a sometimes bumpey runway
Tip may 'skip' box if there is any kind of lip or vaulter does not put arms up at right time
When teaching a newbie they may have trouble adjusting grip if they dont have a feel for how wide hands go


Now for the reason I said Petrov Pefected?

What are the key elements of the Petrov method?
-Free take off
-Jumping and pushing upwards at take off
-long trail leg that swings all the way around without tucking
-A tall high kneed run
-Fast turn over at the end
-And verticle pole cary

The only of these that can not be exicuted by pole pushing is the verticle pole cary, and the only reason it is part of method is because it is theorized to be fastest way to run with pole.
-But I found that it was much easier to hit a Free take off by pushing the pole
-I was able to accualy jump a lot easier at take off instead of just running into the pole
-none of my mechanics changed after I left ground
-and you can still run tall and fast with the same running mechanics pole pushing, and you even get benifit of using your left arm for more momentium

Ok now everyone elses turn to hack at the Idea...

[powerplant42]

A free pole drop makes you run faster. Master it and you'll see... (You'll also find that you can't drive the pole up and FORWARD at plant with a push.)

There are already threads on this.

[KirkB]

I know I'm going to get a lot of arguments against this ...

VP, don't shy away from what you really want to know. The rest of your post is just fine, so don't be shy or worried about "getting arguments" about something. As far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as a stupid question, and there's no reason not to ask a question just because you think you might be in the minority.

Before I ATTEMPT to give you a BIT of insight, I want to qualify my remarks by saying that I've never personally tried the pole push technique.

Having said that, there's 4 ways of running that I can think of ...

1. Pole pushing
2. Side carry
3. Vertical (or high) pole carry
4. Running without the pole

I mention "running without the pole" because you should always be aware of how you're running with and without the pole. In your mind's eye, you need to be able to identify the differences, with the ultimate goal being able to run with the pole as closely as you can to your run without the pole. i.e. Your running technique WITHOUT the pole is your "reference run".

You may laugh at this, but I actually practiced THE REVERSE! Yes, I trained myself to run WITHOUT the pole as if I had a pole in my hands. This didn't improve my 100m time any but it did help to improve my run WITH the pole. I didn't try using a stubby, but that would have helped too. I suppose if you go out jogging around the school or college campus with it, you may get some strange looks, but so what! If you're really that vain, just run with your "invisible pole", basically without waving your arms or shoulders.

Now, I have used #2 and #3 ... extensively. And what I discovered ... thru trial and error ... is that #3 is ALMOST the same as #4. i.e. I could approach my "reference run" (#4) much closer with #3 than with #2. You'll find more info about my "high pole carry" in my Bryde Bend thread.

So what about #1 - pole pushing?

Well, if it helps you to solve other problems with your plant or takeoff, then why not ... in short runs ... in practice? You just finished an amazing practice where you apparently had some technical breakthrus ... not in your run per se, but in your plant and takeoff! So as a "vault part isolation drill", it worked well for you! So keep doing it! And use your improved plant and takeoff as your new "reference plant" and "reference takeoff"!

I do think that the vertical (or high) pole carry is THE BEST! But why? Well, probably for some of the same reasons you discovered today that the pole push was good.

Have you TRIED the vertical pole carry? If not, why not?

Perhaps the pole push is just a good training technique ... a progression towards a more advanced technique ... the vertical pole carry!

When teaching a newbie they may have trouble adjusting grip if they dont have a feel for how wide hands go

Just wrap a fist-width of tape on the pole where their bottom arm should grab. That's your target!

Kirk

[VaultPurple]

Thanks for the imput KirK.

Yes I have been 'trying' a verticle pole cary for as long as ive been vaulting. Key word is try, not that im very good at it.

Then only reason why I am considering just switching my full vaults to pole pushing is because ive been stuck on the same size poles for about 4 months now and its seems no matter how much faster I run thats not changing much. But when I pole pushed I basicaly got up to my competiton poles from a 4 or 5 step.

Also I am not fast.. Might could break 13 in 100 but thats questionable. And I truly feel I could be able to run a lot faster when not carying the pole. The only reasonable argument I have seen from reading about pole pushing on here is that the free pole drop helps you accelerate over the last few steps. But if i can run faster and jump higher it kind of makes up for it.

In my opinion pole vault is just long jump with a pole in your hand. And when pushing I feel that if i was able to put a take off boad at about 11' and really drop down and jump up then it would help my vault. This is because when you look at long jump mechanics their last right foot they drop down a little so they can hit ground hard with that last left. Dont see why it should be any diffrent for the vault.

[KirkB]

Yes I have been 'trying' a verticle pole cary for as long as ive been vaulting. Key word is try, not that im very good at it.

I guess I just don't understand where you're going wrong. If you do it right, it's so EASY!

The only reasonable argument I have seen from reading about pole pushing on here is that the free pole drop helps you accelerate over the last few steps.

Be careful to say what you mean. Do you mean that "the vertical pole carry, and its free pole drop" helps you accelerate, or do you mean that "pole pushing" helps you accelerate?

You must mean "the vertical pole carry", but that's not true ... it doesn't help you ACCELERATE ... it just makes it easier to MAINTAIN your speed going into the plant/takeoff. The "free pole drop" just makes the pole feel weightless, so there's less DRAG on you when you're trying to MAINTAIN your speed as you're planting and jumping.

Think of both the vertical pole carry and the pole push as 2 ways of achieving the same objective ... to "free yourself" from the weight of the pole as you're running, planting, and jumping.

In the case of the vertical pole carry, IF YOU DO IT PROPERLY, the pole should feel WEIGHTLESS. You should not feel the weight of the pole interfering with your run, plant, or jump. However, you can't bob your arms or shoulders at all.

In the case of the pole push, IF YOU DO IT PROPERLY, you should be able to run closer to your normal #4 running action (bottom arm and shoulder bobbing) without the weight of the pole interfering with that action. However (as you've pointed out), you have a more complicated plant, and there's other issues to worry about.

Notice that the key words in either case are "IF YOU DO IT PROPERLY'. I suspect that you've somewhat mastered the pole push ... at least on a short run ... but not the vertical pole carry yet. Think about what you're doing wrong there. Wherever you feel the pole interfering with your run, plant, or takeoff, ask yourself why. Why? WHY? Where and when are you feeling the pole's weight? Why? How can you fix that? Dig to the root of the problem, and fix it. The key is to make it feel completely WEIGHTLESS!

Oh yes ... don't expect to learn the vertical pole carry on a windy day!

Kirk

EDIT: Changed "arms and shoulders bobbing" to singular - "bottom arm and shoulder bobbing".

[VaultPurple]

That makes me feel a little better if it not proven that the verticle pole drop causes acceleration. But Ive been carying the pole since I started vaulting, and im pretty sure its atleast close to a free drop, the pole never really affects my run, It is me trying to turn my feet over to hit my take off that slows me down. When I cary the pole, no matter where I stand or how hard I seem to turn my feet over I am still usualy a little under, and the only times im not its because i really try to turn over fast and quickening my steps and coach says it looks like im accualy slowing down.

Ive always been kind of a visual vaulter in all aspects. I put markers all up and down the run way. In practice ill put a shoe or a piece of tape at my mid, more tape and markers at my take off, and I can barely hit the mat if theres not a bungey for me to aim for because I cant figure out what way is up. This is why I said if I had a take off board like in long jump id hit my step perfect. This is why pushing made my take off better because i could visualy see the pole tip going into box so I would know when to jump.

Notice that the key words in either case are "IF YOU DO IT PROPERLY'. I suspect that you've somewhat mastered the pole push ... at least on a short run ... but not the vertical pole carry yet.

Accualy, yesterday was the first day I have ever vaulted by pushing the pole, thats why I was so excited that I was jumping so high with it.

[KirkB]

That makes me feel a little better if it's not proven that the verticle pole drop causes acceleration.

I'm not sure that you have this right. It's not a matter of proving anything. It's just that if the pole is weightless, there's nothing that's going to accelerate your vault. It won't speed it up, and it won't slow it down.

Are you thinking that some people think that the fall of the pole somehow speeds up your run? If so, that's incorrect.

All that happens on a "weightless pole drop" is that your body is free to plant and jump, unencumbered by the weight of the pole. This is totally unrelated to the pole drop "causing" you to accelerate.

Kirk

[altius]

"It's just that if the pole is weightless, there's nothing that's going to accelerate your vault. It won't speed it up, and it won't slow it down."

"Are you thinking that some people think that the fall of the pole somehow speeds up your run? If so, that's incorrect."

Two points - first while it would be difficult to prove one way or the other, I do not believe that the pole is weightless as it is lowered - and it is lowered not dropped!!
Secondly Petrov argues that the lowering pole "'leads to an additional thrust that forces us to run more quickly with an increased stride rate". Unfortunately this is where translation problems cause difficulties. What I believe he was saying is that the vaulter now continues their acceleration into take off by increasing their stride cadence - while maintaining - not increasing stride distance - as would normally be the case with a sprinter. This maintains a tall body shape and puts them in a better position to jump at take off.

[VaultPurple]

Ok so the guy videoing my first attempts from thursday at pushing the pole. The url is on facebook and I dont know how to get a facebook video to another site so until i get him to put it somewhere else, you can only see it if you have an account.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php ... =604438161

But the things I noticed in my best video was I took off from about 10'7 with a 12'6 hand grip and was atleast 3 if not more inches off the ground befor the pole started to bend. I usualy have funn bend at take off from 10' with a 13'2 hand grip. Then because I was already jumping my trail leg was way back and swung through hard. Top half sucked in best take off because i compleatly blew through pole and had no time to do anything.

If you can see vid take a crack at it, and if you know how to take facebook videos and post them somewhere else please let me know.

[KirkB]

VP, you're already a member of this new PV Vid site http://polevaultvideos.fliggo.com/ ... and so am I.

If you can get it there, we'll be able to see it. (I don't like facebook, and refuse to join! )

Kirk

[VaultPurple]

ill see what I can do, I accualy tried uploading it to that new site but they can only use youtube urls, and youtube is fuzzy... you really should hop on the band waggon, the video quality on facebook is better than any other site i have seen.

[VaultPurple]

mozilla lets me take it from facebook

so it should be on the new pole vault video site as soon as they confirm the upload.

I just uploaded the one with the pre jump, the top half is not that pretty but thats not what i was focusing on.