PoleVaultPower.com

Ha ... just drive drills with some insane separation ... have at it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BashXdtd8Nc

LHS, a couple questions ...

1. Are those pads legal? I'm just surprised at how much wide open space there is around the standards.

2. Are you just playing around, or have you ever tried to drive your lead leg like that in a full vault?

I've never seen anyone do it that way on a real vault, but after watching Jason Colwick's vids, nothing will surprise me.

There might even be a technical advantage to driving your entire leg like that ... I don't really know ... it never occurred to me until I saw your drill ... what do you think?

The disadvantage that I can think of is that it's neither dropping the lead knee (which can lead to a good swing), nor a driving KNEE ONLY (which speeds up the rotation into an invert). It's a bit of a weird cross between the 2 that's MAYBE worse than either of the traditional lead leg actions ... maybe!

The one advantage that strikes me is that it's MORE than a driving lead knee ... you're getting extra oomph out of the entire leg going so far forward. And it might (MIGHT!) turn into a nice swing, once the trail leg catches up to it. How does it FEEL?

You may recall that a month or 2 ago ... I joked ... pondered ... whatever you want to call it ... about a double-leg swing ... thinking that no one would ever do it that way. I thought my query was 100% hypothetical. Then I found Pat Manson's vid of that (he was just playing around), and then Jason Colwick's vids started popping up (he's SERIOUS!).

So ... nothing will surprise me more than I've already been surprised about Colwick!

If you've never tried this on a full vault, are you willing to give it a go ... just as an expirement? Or are you worried that it might be dangerous in some way? (If so, please don't try it!) It already looks dangerous ... it looks like you might tear your adductors if you're not careful.

Kirk

actually this IS how im trying to vault. the drill isnt really even exagerrated. thats what i want. the pole really just isnt anywhere neer enough for it.. just a "baby pole that i was messing around on". i find that the more you drive your knee or that entire drive leg forwards, the more your trail leg extends. an easy way to help explain this is to relate it to isaac newtons law.... for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction right?. well same here ... the more u drive that lead knee and leg.. the more that trail leg stays back and the more seperation you get. This type of technique could be comparable to the bryde bend thread on this site ... "jumping to the split position". but for all practical purposes it has been extremly effective for me. i believe toby stevenson drives his leg like that.... maybe if u can get a slow mo of him on stabhochsprung.com u might see it.when full vaulting it really gives u alot of penetration and drive into the pole and the trail leg does and can stay down for a long sweeping motion. the only problems im having right now is about 5/8 of the way through my swing im starting to lose my drive knee and that causes my swing leg to break in and tuck a bit ... but thats my own personal error. As for the saftey of this vaulting style. it has been just as safe as any other method ive seen. personally im pretty flexible and i dont feel like im anywhere neer about to pull a muscle or anything.

Seems like an all around plus to me..
"The disadvantage that I can think of is that it's neither dropping the lead knee (which can lead to a good swing), nor a driving KNEE ONLY (which speeds up the rotation into an invert). It's a bit of a weird cross between the 2 that's MAYBE worse than either of the traditional lead leg actions ... maybe!"

i think this actually gives u that mix between the two like you said .. but i dont think its worse than either of them i think it gives you the best of both worlds to be honest......but then again im not a 19ft jumper reasoning? when u drive the whole leg your foot is the drive fulcrum not your knee. so that foot acts as a dropped lead knee for a good swing YET your knee is still high and when you swing you can continue to raise that knee farther and drive it into your chest for the faster rotation to your invert.
Best of both worlds? or perhaps a complete flaw in the continuos chain? its a toss up. but once i really get it down and get it on film maybe we can decide the positives and negatives. or maybe if like i said you can base it off the way stevenson jumps.



wish we could get sum big guns out there willing to try sumthing new haha,.,,, lastly this really does let u carry your speed through alot more which is probably why you get more drive with it.

as for the pads... yea there legal we just tend to not place the standard protectors where they should be .. not the brightest idea but weve never really had those problems.... plus the long jumpers steal them as hurdles to try and drill in the hieght they need for there jumps

I actually have thought about this before. I thought out the physics/biomechanics of it... If you think about the forces, you will realize that this is EXTREMELY inefficient: YOUR COM GETS MOVED FORWARD.

Let's analyze.

First of all, you are completely taking away the benefit of the initial 'punch' of the heel up into the buttock. Secondly, your right hip flexor will be working way too hard, which might throw you off balance during the swing. But that's not as important as what happens if you can't keep bringing that leg up (in the same plane that your thigh would be with a traditional drive knee)... You can't help but TUCK! Unless you have the strength to skip the L position entirely (pretty doubtful), when your trail leg catches your drive leg you will have to curl up or bail.

In short, it combines a Petrov swing with a double-leg swing... But only the drawbacks of both! You don't take advantage of a COM close to your hips (helps the body's angular momentum), and you can't compensate with a super-strong swing because your leg is out in front of you instead of out behind you like Colwick or even underneath you like Lukyanenko.

But let's stop theorizing. Go TRY this on a high bar. Bring the film back here, THEN we can really sort this out.

ok i agree with a couple of those drawbacks, that is IF you don't Drive that knee up after the initial swing. if you continue to drive it up i dont see why you wouldn't get the benefits of both ....

i am confused when you say " the initial punch of the heel hitting the buttocks"?? please explain.

and sure ... heres some vid of me on a bigger pole from 3 and five lefts it should help show some of the swing mechanics a little better. Please note that these aren't anywhere near perfect lol ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJMZ74uNZkg the drills at 42, 1:23 and 1:42 are some of the better ones.


and if u want some vid of me doin it on a high bar after looking at that vid then just ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T8sHyM2 ... annel_page

this vid should help a bit to ... again im only a junior in high school ... im 16.....my form isnt exactly great lol its getting there should jump around 15+ this year but i believe... and i could be wrong,but if you drive your leg out like that and then begin to swing your going to get deeper penetration with a very long swing. drive that right knee Straight to your chest RIGHT after the initiation of the swing and you should be able to hit the L position "bubka" position just fine. maybe with a slightly bent trail leg. but in the vids im still no where near there yet.... heck i could be wasting my time lol... just makes sensce to me ... if your a short guy like me you need a little more advantage. and i think a bigger drive and longer swing might be the trick.....

LHS ... I'm going to ignore PP's comments for now (I often disagree with him ), other than to say that if you're already vaulting this way, we don't need to see your HIGHBAR vids ... we need to see your VAULTING vids!

LHSVaulterJJR wrote: actually this IS how i'm trying to vault. ...

Interesting!

LHSVaulterJJR wrote: ... an easy way to help explain this is to relate it to isaac newtons law.... for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction right?. ... the more u drive that lead knee and leg.. the more that trail leg stays back and the more separation you get. ...

I buy that ... entirely!

LHSVaulterJJR wrote: ... This type of technique could be comparable to the bryde bend thread on this site ... "jumping to the split position". ...

When I think of how far forward my KNEE was, and how far backwards my TRAIL LEG was, I had the same "split" as you demonstrate. The difference is obvious tho ... I wasn't so flexible that I could straighten my lead leg out like you (nor did it ever occur to me to try this), and if I DID stretch it out like you, I suspect that my adductors would tear. However, if you TARGET this technique, and train accordingly, streteching and strengthening your adductors with lots and lots of drills and excercises, and if you warm up properly before jumping, I don't see why mere mortals couldn't do this like you. Females always seem to have better flexibility in "doing the splits", but I see no reason why males couldn't also do this. Many male gymnasts have surprisingly good flexitility.

Quite honestly, when I did my Bryde Bend, I wasn't trying to be innovative at all ... other than raising my trail leg BACKWARDS and UPWARDS to accentuate the Split before the downswing. I was just trying to go down the best technical path that I could figure out at the time, and the only 2 choices that I considered for the lead leg ... based on observation of other elites ... were to either keep it up or to drop it. I chose to keep it up, since I didn't think I had the gut muscles that Nordwig had to drop it and then "lift" it up again. At the time, I didn't consider the possibility of SWINGING it up ... like Hooker, Lukyanenko, Colwick, etc.

LHS, if you're able to SWING your lead leg up (perhaps as the trail leg catches up to it), you might have something here! An alternative to consider is to tuck it in after your split.

LHSVaulterJJR wrote: ... but for all practical purposes it has been extremly effective for me. ...

Your PR is 15-0? 16 year old Jr., eh? How long have you been expirementing with this? What was your PR prior to that? Please give us a little historical progress report. It sounds like you're very athletic, and have given this a lot of thought ... and a lot of practice. (I haven't watched you other vids yet ... just your first one.)

LHSVaulterJJR wrote: ... i believe toby stevenson drives his leg like that.... maybe if u can get a slow mo of him on stabhochsprung.com u might see it.when full vaulting it really gives u alot of penetration and drive into the pole and the trail leg does and can stay down for a long sweeping motion. ...

I see a slight hint of that in his vaults, but its nowhere nearly as extreme as in your vid. I'll download Stevenson's, and look at it in slo-mo. Is his technique what gave you this idea?

LHSVaulterJJR wrote: ... the only problems i'm having right now is about 5/8 of the way through my swing i'm starting to lose my drive knee and that causes my swing leg to break in and tuck a bit ...

Have you considered tucking your LEAD LEG in, whilst keeping your trail leg long (during the upswing)? 5/8 of the way thru your swing would be in your UPSWING, I think. Just after your trail leg passes the chord, right?

LHSVaulterJJR wrote: ...i think this actually gives u that mix between the two like you said ... your knee is still high and when you swing you can continue to raise that knee farther and drive it into your chest for the faster rotation to your invert. ...

Makes sense to me ... if it works! Even if it's not perfect yet, as long as it shows promise and you're not discouraged by any "gotchas", there's no reason for you to NOT continue working on this technique ... based only on what you're saying here. We need to view your vids of full jumps!

LHSVaulterJJR wrote: ...Best of both worlds? or perhaps a complete flaw in the continuous chain? its a toss up. but once i really get it down and get it on film maybe we can decide the positives and negatives. or maybe if like i said you can base it off the way stevenson jumps. ...

One very important point ...

If you can do this WITHOUT PAUSING in that split, then it conforms to the continuous chain theory. If you're pausing in the split, then that's a passive action that will most likely need correcting. Compared to a normal driving lead knee, we could even argue that your technique is MORE ACTIVE.

Think about it ... even tho the normal lead knee is actively driving, the lower leg is passive ... isn't it? It's not adding any extra energy into the "vaulter-pole system"!

Your technique is doing 2 things ... (a) it's an additional ACTIVE action (to the point of reaching your max split); and (b) it gets your trail leg back further (which is also an ACTIVE motion). This is all on the proviso that you IMMEDIATELY swing with the trail leg, and (perhaps) tuck the lead leg in (or swing ... or do SOMETHING with it).

LHSVaulterJJR wrote: ... wish we could get sum big guns out there willing to try sumthing new haha ...

Well, we might get Stevenson trying to accentuate his lead leg drive even more than he already does, but don't expect any other elites to jump on the bandwagon anytime soon, as that would basically be a step backwards for them. This technique is significantly different, so they would have to abandon their current technique to try this. It's probably a risk (loss of time during there career that they might prefer to spend perfecting their current technique) that most won't be willing to take. I don't mean to be a pessimist here ... because you never know ... but the trend has been that once an intermediate vaulter becomes an elite vaulter by becoming successful with a particular model or technique, you rarely see technical changes that are this "drastic".

If you have the athleticism and the determination to succeed with this technique, then YOU can become the new elite that's successful due to this! I think this is the path that Jason Colwick is carving out for himself. Not that anyone should copy his technique ... yet. Same with your technique ... YOU are the pioneer!

I'm interested in seeing your full vault vids for another reason ... I want to see how the other parts of you vault look ... and what model they follow. Can you explain?

LHSVaulterJJR wrote: ... this really does let u carry your speed through a lot more which is probably why you get more drive with it.

I buy that ... I think! It moves your CoM further towards the pit (compared to the other 2 lead knee styles), so that should improve the pole's rotation to vertical. Dropping the lead knee LOWERS the CoM down further, but your technique moves it FORWARDS further ... towards the pit. It's a tossup what's better.

Open questions ...

1. Does this technique contradict or compliment the laws of physics? What are the technical advantages and disadvantages, from a physics perspective?

2. Is anyone aware an any elites that have tried this technique and either (a) used it successfully; or (b) abandoned it after finding it infeasible?

3. Has Toby Stevenson ever discussed this particular aspect of his technique? What's his opinion about it?

Kirk

Your second video is nothing like your first. You barely do it at all!

However, I did notice some. There were varying degrees of 'stretch'... I'll play to you KB... When he has less of a 'stretch', he gets further through the flat-back position!

Although, LHS, you will argue that the penetration was bigger on the stretchier vaults, and that this will help you get on bigger poles... Let me answer with a question. What does a stiff bottom arm do?............

"Gotcha."

LHS, I watched your jagodins on your other 2 vids.

Here's another discussion about jagodins that's going on in the "Press drills" thread today ... http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=17162

I look forward to seeing some actual vaults over a bar. I hope I can give you some good advice on this, once I understand your technique better.

Kirk

ok... here we go lol one question at a time.

You first asked for some historicle progress. NO i have not jumped 15 ft. Although I dont see why i cant jump that hieght by the end of this season. I Jumped officially 11'9" last season. I havent had any form of coaching whatsoever up until this year. This season ive been extremely lucky and am being coached by david spivey. He himself was coached by dave roberts and mike cotton and jumped 18' 10 back in the day when the world record was 19 2. Now my coach is about 5'8 so hes a short vaulter as well as myself. Im 5'6 5'7 and not all that fast. This vaulting style is my way of trying to compensate for my hieght and speed through some drive and swing eccentuations using my own athletic abilities to my advantage. Perhaps the way all short vaulters should jump. compared to the way a 6'2 vaulter would jump. Now this year since ive started vaulting ive increased dramatically. mostly do to actaully having a coach but i have been over a 14 foot bungee withought touching it. and ive only been vaulting for about 3-4 weeks this season. so an increase of about 2 and a half feet in 4 weeks seems like some good numbers to me. 15' 15' 6 is the aim for the end of the season. i am a 16 yr old junior.

Next...

i took a look at stevensons vids and your right he really doesnt do it as much as i remembered. but yes his vaulting gave me a slight idea to try this technique. although his split isnt as extreme you can see him drive his lead knee back to his chest immediatley after his swing starts

Next ...
your completley right thats what im trying to do .. get that split and begin that swing, and when i swing i want my lead leg NOT to continue to stay out infront of me like that i want to tuck my LEAD knee high into my chest and keep my trail leg long. when you do this it should just get the advantage of the drive from the split postion, and then shorten your rotational axis on your swing up when you tuck that lead knee

I do want to conform to the continuous chain theory here. so when we talk about adding active motions like reaching your maximum split, i would count that as simply finishing your takeoff, and once you finish your takeoff your should immediatley swing.


in response to PP
Yea i really didnt do the split as much as i would have wanted in the vids on the bigger pole and longer run drills. When u get on longer runs all your flaws kind of eccentuate right? lol well i just wasnt focusing hard enough on it on those other films. ill try to get some video of me drilling that today. from a 5 left on a medium size pole.

as for the stiff bottom arm .. im a short guy and my coach was a big bend short vaulter and hes encouraging a semi wide grip and stiff arm. i do belive that when i begin nit picking at my own technique, i will be able to get that stiff left arm high enough to drive my chin and chest forwards.

lastly i dont understand what you mean when you say the less stretch i get the more i get through the "Flat back position"? i dont know what that is lol maybe just termanoligy

again i apologize for a lack of decent footage to analyze. simply because im just getting accustomed to the vault in general. a 14 ft vaulter isnt exactly someone you can look at to analyze a pole vault model. no 14fter is! but my form and vault WILL contuinue to increase as fast as possible and once i figure some of the vault out PHYSICALLY .. out on the runway .. then maybe we can make some assumptions of my innovations to the vault.

as of vaulting at a bar. ive got a meet this friday .. wish me luck! and hopefully ill have some successfull jumps at higher hieghts while ACTUALLY USING this technique. just as other 14 ft vaulters wish they could get the petrov model right!lol Im absolutley positive though that if i was to vault the way i have this vault set up in my head i could be a 17 ft high school vaulter. even for my lack of speed and hieght! who knows what it could do past the high school level. with various athletes.but then i guess wede be able to move this into the advanced technique forum. Which is where it belongs but due to my lack of performance here it is doomed! for now

as for the stiff bottom arm .. im a short guy and my coach was a big bend short vaulter and hes encouraging a semi wide grip and stiff arm. i do belive that when i begin nit picking at my own technique, i will be able to get that stiff left arm high enough to drive my chin and chest forwards.

Are you TRYING to block? And a wide grip will make your swing even more difficult to perform. What I was getting at with my question/answer was that a stiff left arm gets you more initial penetration... at the cost of a poor swing...

I'm sorry, the physics/biomechanics and such are just NOT MAKING SENSE. I just went out and tried it on my high bar, and the swing is MUCH slower with the leg out. On a pole it will be worse because you're fighting to catch up to the big bend/recoil you got from the extra drive!

However, I will be an 'empty, clean tea cup'. Let's see if my hypotheses are correct when we look at your newer videos.