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I've been reading the lengthy thread on the mid mark chart and have a quick question. It's kind of a "chicken or the egg type question." Forgive me if this has already been answered, I couldn't find it anywhere. Does the hand grip determine the mid mark or does the mid mark determine the hand grip. For exampe, if I have a vaulter who's hand grip is 11'5 and her mid mark is 40', does that mean that she should try to be getting her last 6 strides into a 38' mid mark or does it mean that she should be gripping at 12'. I assume it has a lot to do with how the athlete is running. Any thoughts?

midmark comes befor the hand grip... Use the mid-mark designated for the hand grip you are currently at. This will make your run a lot more efficient and your steps on. I used to try to modify the midmark chart to fit me by gripping 13'2 and running from 43mid because im shorter or tweeking little things. But when I just used it as written and adjusted my mid to 44' like it says i started hitting my take off perfect and every thing has came together really fast.

ps. It seems to be designed for a really quick last 6 steps so you really need to work on turn over to use it correctly. (i think)

So when do you move your mid mark or grip, or do you do both at the same time?

I'll do my best dj impression...

Speed = stride rate x stride length (ALWAYS)

For a given speed, the athlete creates a set amout of FORCE, or INERTIA... The MID is a checkmark to see that the athlete has the SPEED to create enough INERTIA for their GRIP... If the MID is off, then SPEED is being compromised at the end of the approach by a lengthening (WAY more common) or shortening of stride length, and/or the GRIP is wrong. The athlete should be taught how to run with the pole correctly before using this system!

I'm sure dj will find this thread soon and clear things up.

But basically, the MID is determined by the athlete's speed and run characteristics, not by their grip. (Would you tell an athlete to grip at 15' then say run x m/s or tell them to run as fast as they can gripping low then grip up as necessary?)

My real question is how to advance using the chart. Eventually every vaulter will either get faster or a more efficient vaulter and need to move their step back. So if a vaulter is holding at 13', has a mid mark of 43', running correctly and blowing threw the pole. I assume you would then move the grip and mid mark back, but I want to make sure that's the correct method

Correct.

jam354 wrote:I've been reading the lengthy thread on the mid mark chart and have a quick question. It's kind of a "chicken or the egg type question." Forgive me if this has already been answered, I couldn't find it anywhere. Does the hand grip determine the mid mark or does the mid mark determine the hand grip. For exampe, if I have a vaulter who's hand grip is 11'5 and her mid mark is 40', does that mean that she should try to be getting her last 6 strides into a 38' mid mark or does it mean that she should be gripping at 12'. I assume it has a lot to do with how the athlete is running. Any thoughts?

The hand grip generally determines mid mark. If 11'5 is the appropriate grip in terms of how deep she is landing in the pit, then she's probably striding at the end. Work on getting that fixed, and she'll probably be able to grip higher and move the mid back, but it will be further back because she is running better.

If I understand this right (and I'm pretty sure I do) your question was "So if a vaulter is holding at 13', has a mid mark of 43', running correctly and blowing through the pole. I assume you would then move the grip and mid mark back, but I want to make sure that's the correct method" ,I would suggest you put her on a stiffer pole. The only adjustment made to the chart comes when you have a vaulter shorter or taller than the 6 foot jumper the chart was designed around. That adjustment is on the mid mark and more importantly the take off point. If you consider a 5' 6" vaulter at plant, his top hand is going to be lower than the 6 foot jumper at plant. Because of that he will also be 6 inches or so farther away from the box than the 6 foot jumper. Realizing that, his or her mid mark will also be 6 inches father away from the box. Search "DJ's mid mark chart". There was quite a dialogue about the correct use of the mid mark chart. Especially convincing of it's merits was ladyvolscoach's entry about his drill that created an exact same take off point for two different vaulters who were roughly 6 inches different in height. Good luck! Once you get a good grasp of the benifits of the chart and your vaulters do too, you'll be surprised at what a great tool it is. Later................Mike

I am starting to get the concept. I havn't actually started working with my athletes using the charts yet, so obviously I'm not fully grasping it. I'm still just not getting how an athlete would progress through different length poles. I saw on Bubba Sparks page that each season they start at the beginning of the chart and can only move on when they make the height. Wouldn't this require different running speeds at each grip?

hey

just found this post.

as becca said use the grip that you can "move" into the pit easily. this is why it is a "safety tool" first.

it's best to practice the approach on the track first.. and i usually do at least three lanes with three progressive "MIDS" for each vaulter..

but if you are already on the runway... check the run this way... if your grip is 11-5 put a mark at 38 feet on the side of the runway. either check to see if the vaulter hits this mark from the full run or you can run back from the 38 foot mark to set up your full run.

now. run from the full run ... see where the vaulter hits at the "MID" and where they were at the takeoff. make sure the point of takeoff is as vertical from the grip to the toe at the plant as possible. as was said, this mark will be determined by the reach height of the vaulter. BUT don't spend a lot of time (no time) trying to adjust to the difference in physical heights of the vaulter. that will actually be wasted time.. I basically NEVER watch the takeoff point, I watch the TAKEOFF… I ask the vaulter what they "felt" at the takeoff… they can usually tell you if they got.. yanked a little, jammed or stretched or maybe reached a little.. little out? Little under? Etc.. the vaulter should always know based on feel if they were one or the other.

If they didn’t feel the takeoff point was that off.. it is not the important point on "that" vault…. the coach will check your "MID" and then watch the 6 steps and see if you were very near to vertical and help you determine if you stretched, chopped or was just right.. … or OK.. because just right doesn't happen often.

hopefully what the coach sees is what the athletes feels …..The athletes feel and "coaching" will help the athlete adjust naturally and correctly to any differences in physical stature.

The "MID" is a coaching tool and is used for what it can tell you about the run and keeping you consistent...

when a vaulter starts to run faster you would assume they are running more correctly.. this is when the grip starts to go up and the "MID" should go out, unless the "MID" is already out. you need to pay attention to athletes that are under gripping.. because of poor posture and plant mechanics .

it is common, with girls especially, to have a girl with a 43 foot "MID" which the coach and athlete feels is absolutely "ON" based on her speed, but is jumping 10-6........... i would, and have done this, i put her on a 38 foot "MID", from whatever length run (short run) and force her to learn to vault. she went from 10-6 to 12-6.. it took 4/5 weeks with steps on the track everyday as part of the warm up and vaulting with a 38 foot "MID" when she cleared 11 feet with a 38 foot "MID" we moved back..

bottom line is, even though i don't go to the extreme Bubba does with the numbers, if you use the chart the vaulter will be forced into the right run rhythm at every level so the transition is natural based on how fast they are or how fast they become.

the key is to practice the run on the track with cones or chalk marks for each of the last 6 steps plus the correct run and plant mechanics... into a towel or light sliding box..

i think this should be moved to the :MID" thread.

dj

ps Becca can you put my new metric version of the chart back up..

dj wrote:ps Becca can you put my new metric version of the chart back up..

DJ, why append this nice thread to all that crud in the old MID thread?

I got more out of this one.

Why not separate the wheat from the chaff, and put all the GOOD STUFF from there onto this thread?

The problem with appending this one to the old one is that readers will have to weed thru a bunch of $*#* to find this good stuff.

Just a thought.

Kirk

LOL

good point...

dj

ps we still need to add the chart....