PoleVaultPower.com

I am often confronted by various local coaches during competition about my awful misconceptions about how to pole vault. When I make suggestions to them, they will typically either shrug it off, dismiss my knowledge, or proceed to tell me that their way is really the 'right' way. I don't want to be a 'bad cup' (I want to be an empty and clean one), so, here I am... about to play devil's advocate. Refute my statements (which are all totally independent of one another) with a logical argument using analogies and examples... if you dare! (OR, if you AGREE with one of these arguments, please explain why.)

1. Blocking with the bottom arm is the way to go. This way, you get a big bend in the pole which gives you more penetration into the pit, so it is much safer. *takes PVC pipe out* If you block with this PVC, you can push it forward much more easily, and then it will shoot you upward quicker and more forcefully.

2. If you don't use a wide grip, you are limiting your control of the pole drop. It doesn't matter where your bottom hand is at take-off, because your top hand will still be in the same place. This has no effect on the swing, because you don't swing with your arms.

3. Row. (Curious to see what happens here! )

4. Two of the best drills around are one-handers (one handed jagodins) and rock-backs (take-off, swing back to 'cover' the pole).

5. Everyone should develop their own style of vaulting, because nothing works for everyone... Some people should tuck and shoot, some people should swing long, some people should block, some should not.

6. Beginners should learn to bend the pole as soon as possible. After all, that is what flings the athlete over the bar...

(I have argued against almost all of these in person before!)

Dangit, I just wrote a really long reply and it got deleted...

PP, you need to focus more on your own vaulting and quit worrying about what everyone else is doing. None of the other HS coaches are going to listen to a know-it-all HS kid (no matter how "right" you think you are), so leave it alone unless they ask you about it. And don't try to coach (help) kids from other schools if they have coaches around, unless their coach asks you too.

powerplant42 wrote:I am often confronted by various local coaches during competition about my awful misconceptions about how to pole vault. When I make suggestions to them, they will typically either shrug it off, dismiss my knowledge, or proceed to tell me that their way is really the 'right' way. I don't want to be a 'bad cup' (I want to be an empty and clean one), so, here I am... about to play devil's advocate. Refute my statements (which are all totally independent of one another) with a logical argument using analogies and examples... if you dare! (OR, if you AGREE with one of these arguments, please explain why.)

1. Blocking with the bottom arm is the way to go. This way, you get a big bend in the pole which gives you more penetration into the pit, so it is much safer. *takes PVC pipe out* If you block with this PVC, you can push it forward much more easily, and then it will shoot you upward quicker and more forcefully.

2. If you don't use a wide grip, you are limiting your control of the pole drop. It doesn't matter where your bottom hand is at take-off, because your top hand will still be in the same place. This has no effect on the swing, because you don't swing with your arms.

3. Row. (Curious to see what happens here! )

4. Two of the best drills around are one-handers (one handed jagodins) and rock-backs (take-off, swing back to 'cover' the pole).

5. Everyone should develop their own style of vaulting, because nothing works for everyone... Some people should tuck and shoot, some people should swing long, some people should block, some should not.

6. Beginners should learn to bend the pole as soon as possible. After all, that is what flings the athlete over the bar...

(I have argued against almost all of these in person before!)

The latter 4 arguments all have elements of truth to them. It just depends on how they are taught. Many great coaches implement #3-#6 and have success with it. There might be one model that is best, but there are many ways of getting there.

Unfortunately, she's right about the "not believing you" part. You probably do know a lot about vaulting, however, unless your coach is known for being a great vault coach and the others know that they aren't that great, your input won't do anything. I'm lucky-in our area, my coach IS known as a good vault coach [1 girl won at states her Junior year, and she would have longer,but she hurt her back because she refused to take time off when she should have, one guy won at states 3 times and didn't vault his freshman year, one girl went to states as a sophomore and got 6th and 4th] and the other coaches do know that.

However, even then, it would probably take a LOT for them to listen to a high schooler when it comes to the sport. I'm not sure. [Though we do all correct one team's vaulters when they land on their feet...thats an obvious no-no.]

Listen to what Becca says on that one.

However:

1-[This can be proven by physics] If you pus forwards, thats where all your momentum is going, which makes it HARDER to vault higher. You get deeper into the mat but not as high.

2-Wide grips make it harder to push/pull. Take pull ups for example. Its harder with a wide grip.

3-[I do this one occasionally, accidentally...working onit though.] You lose energy. Pointless.

the others, I'm not sure how to counter.

PP, my take on this is just about the same as RG's.

For a HS Junior with an 11-6 PR, you have studied the art and science of pole vaulting exceptionally well. No one would expect someone with your lack of experience at your age to understand the technical aspects of PV as well as you do.

Therein lies part of your problem. You suffer from a lack of credibility, and also (I suspect) from a lack of "tact". The credibility problem comes from your age and your PR.

Your lack of tact has been observed on PVP on numerous occassions, so this is why I suspect that you talk the same way to people in person. In fact, you've said so. You say that you take pride in being a "straight-shooter". That comes with a price tag.

With some maturity and forethought, you'll find better ways to get your points across. As much as you study PV technique and training methods, your weakest link at the moment is knowing when and how to get your points across without offending people.

There's actually books written on this topic, and courses given. Dale Carnegie wrote a book long ago called "How to Win Friends and Influence People". There's many, many more. Even newspaper columns written (Ann Landers started this trend). In fact, I'm feeling a bit like Ann Landers at the moment, doling out this advice to you. I'll see if I can find some good books (or links) for you to read on this topic.

powerplant42 wrote: I am often confronted by various local coaches during competition about my awful misconceptions about how to pole vault. When I make suggestions to them, they will typically either shrug it off, dismiss my knowledge, or proceed to tell me that their way is really the 'right' way.

Ask yourself if your approach is tactful in these situations. A smart-ass kid is a threat to a PV coach. If you can't understand why, start reading about "how to win friends and influence people".

Are you being over-aggressive in asserting your opinions to him or his athletes? Of all these confrontations, how many do you initiate, and how many are the result of someone approaching YOU and seeking YOUR advice? If you're usually the initiator, you have to realize that the person on the receiving end isn't really open to your advice AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. Their focus at the moment is probably on them (or their athlete) clearing the next bar.

There's a HUGE difference in speaking to someone privately - one-on-one - rather than in front of their peers and athletes. TACT and SENSITIVITY are the key words here. Having said this, don't expect that this one hint will immediately turn things around for you. It's just one of many factors.

powerplant42 wrote: Refute my statements ... with a logical argument using analogies and examples ... if you dare! (OR, if you AGREE with one of these arguments, please explain why.)

If you really think that settling these 6 technical issues here - on this thread - will solve all your problems, then you just don't get it.

powerplant42 wrote: I have argued against almost all of these in person before!

The key word here is "argued". With a more friendly, tactful approach, you will find yourself getting into DISCUSSIONS instead of ARGUMENTS. If you're not "friends" with the person FIRST, then they won't be as approachable. Carnegie's advice: Win their FRIENDSHIP first, and THEN try to influence them (not the other way around). It's been quite a few years since I read his book, but I THINK he might have said something like that!

Remember, YOU started this thread, and YOU asked for our advice, so WE'RE giving it to YOU. Take it to heart. Tough .

I have another suggestion for you, but I'll leave it for a follow-up post. Stay tuned.

Kirk

If you really think that settling these 6 technical issues here - on this thread - will solve all your problems, then you just don't get it.

I do not expect this thread to 'settle' anything... That's impossible. But looking at the other side of the argument and knowing how to counter it (and reaffirming what we already believe) is a plus, right?

These 'arguments' between me and coaches are almost always before or after I compete. I do my best not to interfere with them coaching their athletes, but once they start trying to coach my teammates, I get a little upset... I just tell them to 'smile and nod' when they get advice like widening their grip, or have been given a coaching cue that could lead to a very poor subsequent vault. I will talk to coaches almost immediately when they are doing something unsafe... I just can't let things like that go. I know it's not my responsibility, but watching someone go head to head with the standards on every vault is unsettling.

I am not always the 'initiator'. Often times I will approach a coach (in relative privacy) and proceed to ask why they do something a certain way, or believe a certain thing. Is that wrong? What typically happens though, is when I suggest the possibility of trying things a different way (like teaching the Petrov model), the discussion becomes totally unproductive, so I drop it and go away.

I know I lack tact... It is a flaw that I would like to get rid of pretty badly!

powerplant42 wrote: I know I lack tact... It is a flaw that I would like to get rid of pretty badly!

The first step to recovery for an alcoholic is to admit that he's an alcoholic. You're on your road to recovery, PP!

As promised, here's a few links for your perusal ...

I googled "how to win friends and influence people" and was amazed to find 71 pages of links! Written in 1937, Carnegie's book has stood the test of time, and continues to be THE reference book for the topic of this thread. Buy HTWF&IP - it's only $8, available in most book stores! Put it next to BTB2 on your bookshelf, and - like BTB2 - read it cover to cover.

Here's a 30-point summary of it: http://www.clintdantinne.com/wisdom/dalecarnegie.pdf

Here's another good link ...
http://careerbright.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... e-and.html
... about "5 Essential Tips to Influence and Persuade Others at the Workplace"

And here's one written by a sports psychologist ...
http://www.mnyouthsoccer.org/coaches/ar ... ility2.pdf
It's a 3-page article "The Seven C's of Coaching Credibility". This one might be of general interest - not just re PP's specific situation.

Lastly PP, here's a link that I think hits your situation almost exactly ...
http://coachingtip.blogs.com/coaching_t ... -powe.html
In this blog about "Persuasion Power", executive coach John Agno talks about two major mistakes people make when trying to persuade others:

1. Using the argument that would work best on themselves
2. Overestimating the power of logic and rationality

Tell me if you see yourself in this one. If you don't, you're blind.

Happy reading!

Kirk

All the concepts are wrong.
Let me tell you about coaching/teaching. It is a circular process of "Learning-Designing-Applying-Evaluating". In terms of Giving Opinions About Serious Stuff I don't believe anyone that has not gone through the circle at least 10 times can have anything of any importance to say (but should always be listened too).
I wish I had a dollar for every time I witnessed a coach come to Andjei/Roman/Vitaly/Alan or even me and ask a question but finish it with statements about their beliefs. Another example of this same behavior.
To become a coach you must first Learn (at least 10 circles) and then commit to continue to learn for a lifetime.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

And sometimes what you learn will change your believes forever.

Stages of Learning:
1. Doing
2. Knowing
3. Believing

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

and sometimes you spelling suck hahaha

And sometimes what you learn will change your believes forever.

Been there, done that!

KB: Excellent info from those links. Thank you...

It just becomes so frustrating... These coaches are coaching tomorrow's coaches! They are limiting an untold number of potentials!

powerplant42 wrote:

And sometimes what you learn will change your believes forever.

Been there, done that!

I don't think that's the right attitude. You're never done learning. The day you think you have it all figured out is the day you become a terrible coach.

It just becomes so frustrating... These coaches are coaching tomorrow's coaches! They are limiting an untold number of potentials!

But you're not helping and your attempts at helping are just turning them off. If you are citing B2B or PVP or Petrov, you just make them dislike those things.

If you want to help, encourage the kids you meet to attend whatever clubs and camps in your region are good, and let them know about summer meets in your area.

don't think that's the right attitude. You're never done learning.

Typically, I learn something new about the event every day. Some days, I will have a much more informative experience on PVP or reading e-mails from coaches/KB than I do at school!

If you want to help, encourage the kids you meet to attend whatever clubs and camps in your region are good, and let them know about summer meets in your area.

There's the problem! There really aren't any that are within ~100 miles!

Quick question, do you coach your teammates? Do you have a coach?

I think you should take a realistic look at your situation. You are a high school vaulter who, regardless of your level of knowledge, is not in a position to have a tremendous impact on the pole vault coaching scene as of now. In the future who knows... you may be in a position to make this impact later on down the road. But for now, pushing your weight around won't amount to anything more than the other coaches disliking you and even worse, developing a negative image for yourself.

If you ask me, the best thing you can do for yourself and your teammates for now is to ensure that you are all doing the proper technique. What the other coaches do is up to them. From your position, you really don't have enough leverage to change that. Also unfortunate is that from their perspective you may just be a know-it-all kid, even though you probably know more about proper technique than they do. But being a good coach is more than just knowing the right technique.

You also need to:
1) Be aware of and be able to appreciate ideas other than your own

2) Be thoughtful of how your actions will illicit reactions and responses from others

3) Be reflective of your past experiences and interactions with others in order to develop your interpersonal skills

4) Be prepared to accept that what you think is correct now may actually be incorrect

5) Be conscious and realistic about your position in the grand scheme of things and how much impact your actions can have

6) Be prepared to swallow your pride every now and then (hopefully not too often)

7) Be able to give a response, not a reaction (you can go ahead and figure this one out for yourself)

8) Be reflective of yourself. Understand where you are, know where you want to be and develop a way of getting there. Always taking time to look back in order to assess yourself.

You're young, very enthusiastic and have a good understanding of the Petrov model. It would be a shame to let all that slip away just because you lack in the PR department!