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I have a problem with not completely breaking my bottom arm in, and I was wondering what I can do in the air or on the ground to improve on this...

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

chuckd1356 wrote:... not completely breaking my bottom arm in ...

Can you please clarify what you mean by this?

In your ideal vault, what do you INTEND to do with your bottom arm?

Kirk

to collapse it in so my wrist is bent around the pole and my elbow is on the inside close to my body and ends up right in the center of my chest on inversion.

I can't tell you how many times I hear people (high school vaulters) say that that is the reason why they can't invert or jump 16 feet... This aspect of technique is WAY over emphasized, I find. You should never consciously TRY to 'break' your arm in. If your arm habitually 'tries' not to 'break', then you can fix it with this: Hold the pole vertical and reach up as high as you can flat footed. Then do a simplified plant, walk by the pole, and 'break' your arm in.

However, your swing is most likely the problem. If you're swinging correctly and are on the correct pole, it's nearly impossible not to 'break' your arm in. Get on a highbar.

powerplant42 wrote:I can't tell you how many times I hear people (high school vaulters) say that that is the reason why they can't invert or jump 16 feet... This aspect of technique is WAY over emphasized, I find. You should never consciously TRY to 'break' your arm in. If your arm habitually 'tries' not to 'break', then you can fix it with this: Hold the pole vertical and reach up as high as you can flat footed. Then do a simplified plant, walk by the pole, and 'break' your arm in.

However, your swing is most likely the problem. If you're swinging correctly and are on the correct pole, it's nearly impossible not to 'break' your arm in. Get on a highbar.

You could have told me that without the pompous attitude.

I'm just asking a question. I didn't know.

I can swing and invert wonderfully when doing 3 step freeze drills, but as soon as I move back to my full mark, I constantly block myself out.
Does anyone else have any suggestions?

I had no attitude in my post. It is a suggestion, take it for what you will. You will not find anything mentioning 'breaking' the arm in Petrov's speech at the 1985 European Coaches' Congress, most likely nothing in the 'manifesto' thread, nor anything in BTB2 (that I recall...). This is because it is unimportant. It is a natural movement if you are swinging correctly with the right grip and pole. My guess would be that you are dropping your lead knee and leaving it there (ie. NOT like Lukyanenko, Hooker, etc.) on a pole that is too stiff for you. This is because I used to DO the same things and THINK the same things that you are now.

Don't mind Powerplant, he's not intentionally pompous. He's just a bit superlative in his tone. He means no harm, and is actually quite good at dishing out advice to guys like you. Hmm ... I seem to be AGREEING with him for a change!

chuckd1356 wrote:to collapse it in so my wrist is bent around the pole and my elbow is on the inside close to my body and ends up right in the center of my chest on inversion.

To me, this sounds overly complicated. I'm surprised at all the little things that you're trying to do here. I don't even know if I could do (or want to do) everything that you're trying to do. I don't mean to oversimplify this, but really, (in my experience), there's not much you need to think about doing with your bottom hand.

If you focus on what your top hand and arm should be doing, and make sure you have a high plant, drive the chest in, and just use the bottom hand/arm for balance, that's really all there is to it. "Elbow is on the inside close to my body ...". Hmm, I've never tried that. I've always just let the elbow of my bottom arm go where it goes naturally. There should be no weight on it, so what does it matter where it is?

Powerplant says it's unimportant, and I do too. I will disagree with him a bit here though, and say that you don't need to dig into the PV Manifesto thread or read Petrov's 1985 speech. This is an Intermediate Technique thread, and some of that stuff is quite advanced. I'm not too sure what PR range you, or the typical "intermediate" is at, other than it's between beginner and advanced. Maybe 1-4 years of vaulting experience?

I do recommend BTB2 (Beginner to Bubka 2nd Edition), though. As the title implies, it's a good read for beginners, intermediates, and elite vaulters/coaches.

Kirk

He means no harm, and is actually quite good at dishing out advice to guys like you. Hmm ... I seem to be AGREEING with him for a change!

Hey hey, thank you Mr. Bryde!

Yes, do buy BTB2. You should find in there an important statement, which can (and should) be applied to the entire vault, but is particularly geared toward inversion: There is no magic. The seniors that vault for my school seem to be obsessed with 'breaking' the arm in, instead of obsessing over their run's stride pattern, or obsessing over their take-off position or plant preparation (all infinitely more important). Not 'breaking' in the arm is not a root problem, it is a side effect. We can (and should) trace it back to the root problem, perhaps it is your take-off. You could be way too soft with your bottom arm and then pull (although it is now too late to get the 'chain theory' benefit of pulling) with it, causing you to drop your lead knee as an impulsory action to further penetration. Then the pole picks you up and you're in a big V and can't do anything. This is one possibility, and I believe it is the most probable.

chuckd - Perhaps I sounded a little snide or pompous... If I did, I did not mean to, and you will find that most of my posts are only meant to help. Could it be that I sounded this way because I hinted that MAYBE you don't have a perfect vault? As an athlete you must take the criticism dealt to you and decide if it is valid or not. I am totally objective, and I personally do not care if you take my advice or not. But please don't be so sassy in reply to what you think might be a pompous remark. We got off on the wrong foot, and I am willing to swallow my pride and say that I am sorry if I offended you.

Sounds like a typical case of "locking and blocking," which means pushing the bottom arm forward to where it is nearly locked out to bend the pole, but not being able to invert because it "blocks" your shoulders from allowing you to pivot upside-down. My personal style of jumping in high school in the early 90's. Here is how I fixed it:

Don't know how wide your handspread (grip) is, but try narrowing it a fist at a time and see if you have any better luck inverting. I wouldn't go any narrower than about 14" between your hands though (if you grip the pole with your top hand, place your forearm and elbow of that top arm along the pole and grip the pole with your bottom hand touching the elbow). This will be very awkward and uncomfortable at first, so you might just try it from a short run on a small pole, starting with your normal handspread, and sneaking that bottom hand up an inch or two at a time with each jump, and try to swing to and land on your back.

Also, emphasize pushing both hands upwards (12 o'clock) as you plant and letting your shoulders go "elastic" so that your chest penetrates forward and you could draw a vertical line straight down from your bottom hand to your forehead to your chest as you are leaving the ground. Alan Launder refers to this as a "disengaged" left arm in BTB2. Earl Bell calls it "hitting the pocket." Some just call it chest penetration, while others call it "driving." Not a position to hold for any length of time, but an instantaneous stretch on the shoulders and hips which causes a reflex action of swinging upside down, much like drawing back a bow-and-arrow and releasing it.

Look at videos of Walker, Bubka, Dean Starkey, Tim Bright, Isinbayeva on www.stabhoch.com and try to see this.

Never push forward with your bottom arm to try to bend the pole.

Good luck.