staying behind the pole?

[KYLE ELLIS]

That makes perfect sense to me

Now I have this question, when and how should your CoM pass the chord?

Well what I believe in is what Coach Butler says, I don't know if you have seen his video, but as long as you dont pull and remain elastic you will stay behind the pole. As soon as you start pulling your body breaks and the hips move forward (he shows an example in his video) What he showed me is hitting elastic and then pushing the hands up toward the crossbar. I am not 100% sure as its isn't that important since most of it is feel, but I think once the cord passes 45degrees your pole, and body aligns pointing at the box; I think this is when your COM passes the cord of the pole.
This goes back to the whole action of the left arm after takeoff, after I watched bubka, walker, hooker, colwick, and lukeyenko this is what I see. Plus I have experimented with it now.

[H.I.S.]

I'm definately not pulling with my top hand. At take off I am pushing up and forward. My hand does stretch far behind my head but it feels like I am more elastic when I penetrate with my chestbefore swinging.

When I stay behind the pole I focus on my bottom arm not blocking out

When I keep my chest and shoulds straight I focus a lot more on pushing up with my top hand and my take off is at a higher angle.

[vault3rb0y]

I think you are overanalyzing with talk of "a middle ground", "maybe too much penetration"....

If you cant stay behind the pole with a 6-step pop up stiff vault drill, then chances are you aren't moving the pole as well as you could in your real vault, and chances are you arent actually behind the pole at take off. Also, when you say that you were able to swing to inversion before the pole fully recoiled, thats not what we're looking for. You should be trying to fully invert before the pole even begins to recoil. This won't happen by swinging faster, it happens with a proper take off and swing.

You can talk about what your jump feels like, but until we see it we cannot say whether you are doing what we are looking for or not.

[KirkB]

... You should be trying to fully invert before the pole even begins to recoil. This won't happen by swinging faster, it happens with a proper take off and swing. ...

Altho this is a good target to strive for, it's not really attainable ... not if you take the word "fully" literally.

Using Hooker as a model, he doesn't get FULLY inverted until very late in the swing ... yet he puts continuous pressure on the system by a long, deliberate swing.

On the other end of the scale, Greg Duplantis (not to be confused with his kids ... who are becoming just as famous now) inverted very early ... as I did. Even then, I would not call this FULLY inverted. I would say, tho, that "the earlier the better".

In talking about inverting, we're really not talking about being 100% upside down on the pole. What we're really talking about is being ahead of the timing of the pole ... by getting the hips up above the shoulders as early as possible ... so that when the pole BEGINS to recoil, you're not fighting it by "muscling up". Instead, you're still "swinging up".

3P0, altho I agree that a proper takeoff and swing is key, I would also argue with you that you should not also swing faster. No matter how fast you think you're swinging, you can always swing faster. The faster the downswing (trail leg whip), the better chance to stay ahead of the timing of the pole, and the better chance for an early inversion. An early inversion eliminates "muscling up".

Alternatively, you could swing continuously like Hooker (late inversion) ... but I haven't seen many mere mortal do that. He has exceptional runway speed and an exceptionally high grip. I don't know if you can scale that back to the 3-5m range. It seems to me that the timing of the pole will get ahead of you if you try that.

Kirk

[H.I.S.]

I'm not sure how asking a question is over analyzing...

I'm definately behind the pole at take off,stiff or bending pole. my take off has never been as good as it has been this week

My hips are above my shoulders before the recoil, but I"m not inverted until the pole has almost finished unbending

I know I'm not supppose to be completely inverted and my timing is not perfect and how difficult it is to discuss my jumps without videos and I appreciate all of the help and information everyone has given

[KirkB]

I'm not sure how asking a question is over analyzing...

It's just that you can't perfect your entire vault in one week, just by us talking to you about it and you trying a few things (especially without seeing your vids). It takes time, and instead of ANALYZING (or OVER-ANALYZING) what you're doing right or wrong, it's sometimes better to just take it a baby step at a time, and FEEL the difference between baby steps.

I'm definately behind the pole at take off,stiff or bending pole. my take off has never been as good as it has been this week

Good work!

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

3P0, altho I agree that a proper takeoff and swing is key, I would also argue with you that you should not also swing faster. No matter how fast you think you're swinging, you can always swing faster. The faster the downswing (trail leg whip), the better chance to stay ahead of the timing of the pole, and the better chance for an early inversion. An early inversion eliminates "muscling up".



Kirk

Kirk, i kind of feel like you talk everything i say 100% literally lol. Funny that my knickname became 3PO when it seems most everyone else is speaking in more literal, technical terms. Of course what actually happens in the vault is slightly different from the way i present things. Truth is, according to the 6.40 model you are never "FULLY" inverted. But we still talk about it for the sake of younger vaulters. Im a believer that you should tell vaulters as much as necessary for them to manuever the technique, and that the picky details come later. You can always explain the entire technique to them, but then it can come out of context (and should be in the advanced forum at that point) and a vaulter starts thinking they should keep their hips behind the pole as long as possible or swing as soon as they leave the ground.

I meant to say you should not be swinging sooner, of course faster is always better (given that you are swinging long). We are talking semantics now here, and it depends on how much depth you want to go into staying behind the pole, because you can connect that aspect to every other aspect of the vault if you want to. I said my part as simply as i could, and if you want to go into more depth with kirk about it, be my guest. Just try to avoid paralysis by analysis. I'll stop posting now since it seems im just getting in the way good luck!