Tuck/Shoot v. Petrov Model - Intermediate Technique

[KirkB]

... fyi.. I am talking of a tuck and shoot with NO block out with left arm (IT IS POSSIBLE)

VP, this is not the scenario I'm referring to. Since we're discussing models (and I take the point that Wally made about tuck/shoot not really being an official model), I'm referring to the full vault (except for the run/plant) ... including loading the pole before takeoff and blocking out with the bottom arm.

Even if it's POSSIBLE to tuck/shoot without blocking out, if you're striving for the Petrov Model, then that would be considered a flaw. You should NOT tuck by INTENT. Instead, you should try to speed up your downswing, so that your swinging momentum carries you upside down ... more efficiently.

It's fine to tuck when you're just beginning, to clear low bars. But by the time you start getting over 4.00m, you should be starting to focus on a longer, more powerful trail leg swing ... more swing ... less tuck! More ACTION ... less PASSIVE motions.

Another way to say this is ...

The more speed and energy you put into your downswing ... ending in a powerful WHIP as you pass the chord ... the less you'll NEED to TUCK! Just as on the highbar ... you'll pop into an inverted position on the pole so fast that you won't have to ROW (or muscle up) at all!

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

This gets off the subject a little, and may be a little out of my boundaries to question as i have never coached pole vaulters seriously... but i wonder how risky it is to begin coaching vaulters 3-4m using a tuck and shoot. I know the alternative is to struggle seeing them not fully invert, but i worry that if they get in the habit of tucking at 3-4m vaulters, when they begin going for PR's it may be difficult to avoid tucking as an intuitive "safety" plan to get over the bar. I would suggest coaching them to keep their legs straight as long as possible, with the intent to keep them long during the entire invert. Then... if they cant quite get it, make sure they are at least trying for it.

[KirkB]

... i wonder how risky it is to begin coaching vaulters 3-4m using a tuck and shoot. I know the alternative is to struggle seeing them not fully invert, but i worry that if they get in the habit of tucking at 3-4m vaulters, when they begin going for PR's it may be difficult to avoid tucking as an intuitive "safety" plan to get over the bar. ...

3P0, try to think of this from a slightly different perspective ...

The coach should be there every day ... as they progress from 3.00m to 4.00m. It's not like at 3.00m he tells them to tuck, and then at the end of the season when they're at 4.00m he tells them to keep their trail leg longer and to not bend at the knee at all.

Instead, think of the progression to be teaching a powerful downswing, which gives a powerful whip ... albeit with the flaw of tucking of the trail leg just after (or perhaps just before) the leg passes the chord.

The coach should be at vault practice every day stressing a powerful downswing ... and not even suggesting that they tuck. As the whip gets better and better, there will be less need to tuck. The coach will guide the vaulter thru this progression with the emphasis on "proper" technique, but with a tolerance to the physical limitations of the vaulters ... without any coaching, they're going to tuck.

To me, the tuck is not the worst thing that can happen. Rather, if they don't get fully inverted, they'll flag out ... start using their [weaker] arm muscles instead of their [stronger] back muscles, and so on. To me, THAT'S what's going to lead to bad habits ... not the tuck per se.

I've said in the past to "row if you have to ... to salvage a vault". I'll add to that now, to ... "tuck if you have to ... to salvage a vault ... but the more you raise your PR ... the less you'll find the need to tuck ... IF you and your coach keep your ultimate focus on the Petrov way of swinging and inverting".

Remember that the CAUSE of the tuck is an inferior downswing ... and perhaps other things before that ... so the SOLUTION is to focus on improving the downswing (and anything before that). The coach should not say "DON'T TUCK" if the vaulter is not given a way to prevent the tuck.

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

I see, and that makes total sense. Thanks!

[Tim McMichael]

Re Tim's and Joe's Drive Vault, I probably understand that one better than any other, simply becuz I've read the Oklahoma Manifesto. And I do agree (according to Tim's writings) that they strive to swing faster by tucking as soon as the trail leg passes the chord. But I think you're mistaken by assuming that the don't try to load the pole by taking off "under". In Tim's vids, he does. Ironically his swing is still quite impressive, despite him being under (unlike most other tuck/shooters' swings). One trick he does (similar to my trail leg trick) is to LIFT the trail leg back before he swings it forward. That accounts for him swinging faster than most other tuck/shooters (or Drive Vaulters or whatever you want to call them). And then at the chord, they quickly tuck in the trail leg to shorten their rotational radius and invert quicker "into the pocket" (i.e. into the tuck position).

The problem here is that on the only good video of me out there, I am under. I wasn't usually. If anything, that jump shows what is possible when things are not perfect.

http://polevaultpower.com/media/video/

Instead of focussing on keeping their swinging momentum going, they focus on bending the pole. It's this purposeful bending of the pole that allows tuck/shooters to put more of their run/takeoff energy into the pole than Petrovers. By blocking out (slowing down their swing) the energy has to go somewhere ... so it goes into the pole.

The only problem is that this potential energy doesn't come back out of the pole as very efficient kinetic energy. This is becuz there's a LOT more energy leakage in the tuck/shoot model. Every time you put pressure on the pole or on your body by applying "muscle-power", you're going to have leakage. So BLOCKING causes leakage, and ROWING (muscling up) causes leakage. Also, STEERING (using your arm muscles to get your body aligned in a perfect inverted position) causes leakage. (Steering can happen with Petrovers too ... it's just more prevalent with tuck/shooters.)

It is not so much about slowing down the swing as driving the trail leg back so far that it is longer and swings faster. I don’t see how using the arms actively causes leakage. This has been hashed out numerous times in this forum, so I won't go into it here, but a 53" push off is enough evidence to me that the energy in the pole can exploited effectively with a tuck.

Renauld is my favorite vaulter right now because his top end looks so much like Dial's that it might be a carbon copy. The difference is that he accomplishes a longer swing by dropping his lead knee and double legging it. I've used this technique numerous times and thought seriously about switching from a long trail leg to a double leg swing. I didn't because I had to raise my takeoff angle too much to make it work. I could grip higher by driving straight in. Either way, what it accomplishes is a lower center of mass for longer in the jump, and that aspect of a drive vault should not be discounted. It increases pole speed dramatically and is part of why we push off so far. The pole comes back faster when your hips are low than it does when they are locked to your hands and high on the pole. Petrov vaulter's hips are higher earlier with slower pole speed and a higher grip, and drive vaulter's hips are lower longer with faster pole speed and a lower grip. They rely on increased push off to make up the difference, which is why all the very short vaulter's who have jumped higher gravitate towards this technique. We just can't hold high enough to compete, so a amplified push off is essential. I would not be surprised at all if Renault had a push off around 50”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZJNfX6j ... re=related

I am guessing that there are those who will say that Renault is a Petrov vaulter because he has a free takeoff, and you will get absolutely no argument from me that that is the best way to do it. On my best jumps I was out there with my heel off the ground before the pole started to bend. It was just an all too rare occurrence. What interests me is what he does after takeoff, and it is not Petrov’s method at all - at least to my eyes. The tuck is as extreme as anyone who has ever vaulted. From the middle of the vault on it is the Oklahoma drive vault, and he gets blasted into the air like a rocket.

[KYLE ELLIS]

Tim I would like to put my 2 cents if you don't mind. First I would like to explore why people tuck, more of the reasons that cause it and the disadvantages of it.
Things that cause tucking
#1- Gripping too high (pole over bends and moves slow)
#2- Taking off out (causes flat takeoff)
#3- Tenseness of the arms at takeoff (will cause the hips to punch forward prematurely, this will break your alignment)
#4- Rowing (driving the arms and upperbody forward, this will break your alignment) - When your arms drive forward that makes your feet swing, so if you don't allow your shoulders to drop back then you will break into a V.
#5- A weak core, you have to be strong to swing a full body. Try doing a couple of candlesticks, if you can't do one you are probably to weak to swing a full body without breaking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AEfu_5hzdg
#6- Anything you do with your technique that takes you into V-position.
#7- If you learned to bend the pole without learning proper straight pole technique. No decent athlete will tuck on a straight pole going over a bar unless they were taught too or are very weak.

Renaud tucks because he has many of these in his jump, he over grips and is slightly out, he is tense with the arms at takeoff, when the pole bends as much as his does you have no choice but to tuck... Or you will get dumped out forward.

Tim has a very slight tuck, I think it comes from his power move (which is a row). However it changed alot from his NCAA 18'6 jump to his 18'5 Myriad jump (This one not having much of a row and very slight tuck)

I think a small guy just like any size person can benefit fully both grip and push-off with the petrov model, I think the Petrov model is just very unnatural for a small guy unless they understand the science behind it. Jeremy Scott is 6'9 and his jumps would fall in the category of "little guy technique". Hitting an elastic takeoff (driving the body forward), then pushing the arms back out and being strong enough to not break will result in maximum grip movement and push-off.

This is a little guy and he has some quirky things at takeoff but the middle of his jump is beautiful. And people who don't think pushing the arms back out like Coach Butler teaches, need to think long and hard. (Opposite of Roman's model) The left arm pull happens once the arms re-extend. This guy has mastered that move, even though he does have a slight un-needed tuck. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yUozT73Y1E