Negative Aspects of a Wide Grip

[KirkB]

Rhino is correct, as far as I'm aware. I doubt that the rule would have changed since the 1970s, since it would be really tough to rule on whether the bottom hand shifted up or not. But if it was shifted to above the top hand, it would be visually obvious.

This may sound strange to "modern-day" glass vaulters, but when I first switched from Swedish steel to glass in high-school, I had to force myself not to slide my bottom hand up to my top hand. It didn't take me long to figure out that the pole would "go wild" on me if both hands were together. I think if you look at film of John Ulyses (first man to clear 16' - in about 1962), you may notice a rather narrow grip width. If not him, then several other early glass vaulters that grew up on steel. This was mostly because everyone was still figuring out how best to do this, so they started with the obvious - same as on steel - and worked it out from there. By the mid-60s, most elite vaulters (the ones clearing within a foot of a WR height) had figured this out, and had gone to a wider grip. Bear in mind that every vaulter didn't convert to glass in the same year. This was a gradual phase-in, over a decade (approx late 1950s to late 1960s). It just depended on how "advanced" your vault coach was, and if your high school had money for glass poles that broke quite often. I was the first vaulter in my district (40 miles away from downtown Vancouver) that used glass - in 1966. I was a couple years behind the Vancouver vaulters. Once other schools saw the advantage of glass (believe it or not, some actually thought it was an UNFAIR advantage!), they began to invest in glass poles. This took several years.

For me personally, once I figured out that I wanted a fairly wide grip, I decided that shifting even a little bit was just one more complication during the plant, so I wanted to simplify that part of the vault. In addition to that complication, I didn't have my pole taped so that when I slid the bottom arm up, I would feel the ridge of the tape and know when to stop sliding my hand. I suppose that I could have taped my pole to make that ridge, but even that was too much trouble. The simpler, the better, I decided. The plant was already complicated enough. That was in high school.

As a college Jr., I changed my pole carry from a fairly wide grip to a narrower one. (See: Bryde Bend - Jump to the Split thread on Advanced Technique forum.) This coincided with a high pole carry (the only way, really, to have such a narrow grip).

Again, it was simpler to change to a high pole carry (which also had other benefits), than to worry about sliding the bottom hand up a bit during the plant.

So why would a modern-day vaulter NOT want his hands tightly together? Other than the need to shift the bottom hand (as explained above), there's no advantage to having your grip wider than your shoulders - just like on a high bar. And can you understand the lesser control (balance) you'd have with them together?

Hope that helps clarify some of the history of when the bottom hand slide was phased out (historically).

Andy_C is dead-on in his comments re disadvantages of too wide of a grip. I would say, though, that the top hand should always (for intermediates) be directly above the head, so it's only the reaching forward with the bottom arm that puts you out of kilter.

Kirk

[Pogo Stick]

Moving hands is not allowed by rules. I don't know when it starts, probably with introduction of flexible poles. Someone older maybe can provide more info.

For about a hundred years, it has been against the rules to shift one hand above the other (climbing the pole). Other than that, I have never heard of a rule against a hand shift. I come from Missouri. You've got to show me.

"Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa". Yes, it is not allowed to move bottom hand ABOVE upper hand. There is no any rule against moving bottom hand close to upper hand. I was lost in translation.

[powerplant42]

So Kirk, what you're saying is that balance behind the pole is the issue, that you can't control your body due to the bend? Can you explain in greater detail?

[KirkB]

Hmm ... I thought I went into too much detail on the last post!

I'm saying that back when elite steel vaulters were first learning to control the flex of glass poles, shifting your hands together was too "wild" of a ride. They did that because that's what they were used to on steel. After the WR went from maybe 16' in 1962 (John Uelses) to 16'8" (Brian Sternberg) in 1963 to 17'6" or so in 1966 (John Pennel, Bob Seagren), the vaulters were getting more and more experience with a wider grip. By their success in the mid-60s, it was clear to everyone that a wide grip was better on glass than the narrower grip. With a narrower grip, you were at the mercy of which way the pole would throw you.

I don't think much of this information is that useful for modern-day vaulters, as there's no longer a question of whether you should slide your hands together or not. Today, the bend of the poles is more reliable, and everyone already knows that you should have a grip of at least shoulder width between your hands. My point of raising the history of sliding the bottom hand up wasn't about whether or not you should slide it up from a wide grip to say shoulder width grip. Rather, it was that in the 1960s, vaulters first vaulted with an even narrower grip than that. Once they widened their grip, the control of the pole became easier and more reliable.

I hope that explains it a bit better.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

Thanks for the further explanation!

Yes, I was sure that there was a good reason for not sliding, but I assumed it had something to do with the plant (as a main issue). I believe that it is important to understand every difference between the stiff pole and the flexible pole, and I had thought about this question for a while... now I have been enlightened in a small way, and we are all better from this tidbit of knowledge.

However, I am still not totally convinced on a point that you mentioned that I had not considered before... sliding the hands from a wide grip to shoulder width at plant. Why not? Simply because it isn't worth the bother of messing with the plant in such a way?

[KirkB]

... I am still not totally convinced on a point that you mentioned that I had not considered before... sliding the hands from a wide grip to shoulder width at plant. Why not? Simply because it isn't worth the bother of messing with the plant in such a way?

I can only tell you what I experienced - for what it's worth ...

On Post #2 of "Bryde Bend (Jump to the Split)", I recorded my hand spread at 22". I had to look that up, as I didn't remember. So 22" is what I refer to as "approx shoulder width". This is what I feel is optimal, for reasons explained on that thread.

I was able to carry the pole down the runway with just a 22" handspread because I carried the pole almost vertically, lowering it only just in time to plant smoothly.

Prior to that day, I had a wider handspread and a lower pole carry, and was having difficulty planting.

I know you're asking only about whether or not it's plausible/advisable to shift your hands from a wide handspread to a narrower (shoulder-width) one, but I really can't separate the answer to that question from the high v. low pole carry issue. For me, I switched both the same day - and a week later I had raised my grip (gradually a few inches at a time) by a full FOOT! From ~14' to ~15'.

The issues with low pole carry aren't nearly as extreme today as in the early 1970s, as we had REALLY HEAVY POLES. I mean, they were LOGS! So you can imagine how heavy they felt when they were leveraged out with a 14'-15' grip.

This is well documented on my thread. I'm going to try not to repeat anything that's already there re my pole carry and plant, so go there for details.

But you ask: Can you - and should you - shift your bottom hand up from a wide grip to a shoulder-width grip?

I assume that you want to do this with a low pole carry. Otherwise, there would be no need to shift. Think about it. You actually can't have a wide handspread if you have a high pole carry - it's uncomfortable, and there's no advantage.

So assuming a low pole carry, can you shift your hands a bit during the plant?

The easy answer is "of course you can - if you really want to!". You might want to apply tape to your pole, putting a distinct ridge in the tape where you want your hand to stop sliding. Otherwise, you'll stop at a somewhat random point - which will introduce too much randomness (chaos) in subsequent parts of the vault.

But is it advisable? My best answer is "no", because if you go with a high pole carry, then you won't even need to shift. But if you REALLY want a low pole carry, then I guess you should just experiment. As you suspect, you will have more to deal with during the plant. Since the timing of the plant is already one of the most complex parts of the vault to master, you may be fraught with problems that may take weeks and weeks - if not month and months - to resolve. But in theory, there's no reason why you COULDN'T do this.

I've never ever heard of anyone doing it by intent, and being successful at it though. Have you? Anyone?

I think a good, smooth plant is a consistent one, and the more consistent that you can make it, the better the rest of the vault will go. That's been my personal experience, for what it's worth.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

Good answer. Thank you.

I have never heard of anyone doing it (with or without success), I was just, as always, curious.

So, why did Warmerdam for instance, not use a high pole carry? He wouldn't had to slide as much. I guess it hadn't been thought of yet?

[KirkB]

So, why did Warmerdam for instance, not use a high pole carry? He wouldn't had to slide as much. I guess it hadn't been thought of yet?

There's a big difference between not sliding your bottom hand at all, and sliding it all the way up to your top hand.

There's not much difference between sliding it from a wide carry, or from a shoulder-width carry.

The motion for a bamboo vaulter like Dutch Warmerdam to slide his hand all the way up to the top hand would be just about the same, whether he started from a shoulder-width carry or a wide carry. Either way, it took about the same amount of concentration during the plant. So there was no need to use a narrow spread between his hands whilst carrying the pole down the runway. Thus not as much need for a high pole carry.

Also not as much of a leverage issue. He was gripping in the 13'6" neighborhood to clear 15'6" or 15'9" (off the top of my head) which I think was his usual range during his prime. I forget how heavy my bamboo pole was, but it was definitely lighter than glass. Heck, I was only gripping about 9' when I used bamboo in Jr. High. But Dutch's would have been much heavier. I suspect it still might have been lighter than the glass poles of the 1960s-1970s, but I could don't really know for sure. If it was lighter, then all the more reason that a high pole carry wouldn't have been much of an advantage. Remember that the one disadvantage of the high pole carry is the timing to drop it into the box at precisely the right time.

I'll finish this post just like the last one, by reminding you that the name of the game is to simplify the most critical part of the vault - the plant. This was true for bamboo, steel, and glass vaulters alike.

Kirk