To lose weight or to gain muscle, that is the question.

[vault3rb0y]

I think it would be hard to do with actual people, because everyone has a different jumping style and is able to absorb a certain amount of energy on top, even if they are on the same size pole. But just think of a basic science experiment.... lets say a sling shot with a 1 Ib ball, a 6 Ib ball, and an 11 Ib ball. Each has a cord of equal length that stretches to the equivalent of 10 Ibs over its weight, lets assume, just like a pole, so the 1 Ib ball is on an 11 Ib string, 6 Ib ball on a 16 Ib string, and 10 on a 20 Ib string. Since you are adding a constant variable, 10 Ibs, to each string, the progression will not be linear, if that makes sense.
The relationship of each ball to its string would be constant, at 10 Ibs, but the 1 Ib ball has a string 11 times strong than it, the 6 Ib ball not even 3 times as strong as it, and the 11 Ib ball not even twice as strong as it, and so on. If you did this experiment, the 1 Ib ball would go way farther than the rest. The heavier and heavier you get, the less and less a pole 50 Ibs over your weight will feel. Think of extremes, will a 100 Ib kid jumping on a 150 Ib pole get more or less pop than a 300 Ib man jumping on a 350 Ib pole? I hope that makes sense? Its the best example i could come up with .

[powerplant42]

Nah that's good, but I kind of got lost... I'm thinking about this now... I don't think that percentage would matter. For instance, would the return be the same for a 20 pound kid on a 200 pound pole and a 10 pound kid on a 100 pound pole? I definitely don't think so... But I'll think about it more, just for something to do. My life is so boring lately...

[vault3rb0y]

I think we are both lost in how exactly the cm flex rating is translated into the weight limit. obviously going from a 20cm flex to a 19cm flex is easier than from a 10cm flex to a 9cm.... but im not exactly sure how the weight rating is measured accordingly. All i know is that for the poles im on right now, every 1cm is about 7-10Ibs heavier, but going from a 19.8 to an 18.8 feels way easier than from a 17.3 to a 16.5. I guess we would need a pole expert to answer our questions.... but you are right. Since we dont know exactly how the pole weight rating is measured, but we know its not linear, its harder to say whether a 10 Ib kid on a 100 Ib pole would get thrown more or less than a 20 Ib kid on a 200 Ib pole. We would have to use the force measuring devis (not sure of the name) that was seen on Neovault 3 on a 100 Ib pole and then a 200 Ib pole of equal length. Measure the force, and then use some type of formula to see how far each pole would throw a 10Ib and 20Ib object.

[vtcoach]

A pole rated 50lbs. over your weight is going to return the same amount of energy regardless of whether you weigh 120 or 180.

Actually I think it would be better to be 120 than 180. By percent, the 50 pounds over is more significant to the 120 pound person. So overall, I think added weight could be good or bad, depending on the rate your strenght increases with more weight.

I see your point in terms of % body weight but it is much more complex than that because of the way poles are weight rated. The general flex rule (1 cm less deflection = 5 more pounds of pole weight rating) is not only somewhat arbitrary but it represents an attempt to apply a linear scale to something that is not linear. One centimter of additional pole flex stiffness when you are down in the 12.0 flex range represents a much more significant step than if you are up around 20.0. That is why most elite men only move .3 or so with each pole.

[vault3rb0y]

That is exactly what i was trying to portray. So we are better off making our pole weight ratings according to the actual amount of stiffness it takes to bring a pole to a certain flex. In essence, hypothetically we would need to make the pole weight ratings based on the amount of energy it takes to bend each pole to a certain cm of flex, since that can be a linear measurement, in energy units. By the way, im rusty on some science and physics classes since im only in high school, what are the other ways to measure energy that you would use for physics, is it Hz?

[vtcoach]

That is exactly what i was trying to portray. So we are better off making our pole weight ratings according to the actual amount of stiffness it takes to bring a pole to a certain flex. In essence, hypothetically we would need to make the pole weight ratings based on the amount of energy it takes to bend each pole to a certain cm of flex, since that can be a linear measurement, in energy units. By the way, im rusty on some science and physics classes since im only in high school, what are the other ways to measure energy that you would use for physics, is it Hz?

Yes. Correct. My apologies for not reading as far as your post. It would be much closer to a linear function if they measured force (weight in this case) to achieve some standard deflection. (p.s. Force is measured in Newtons, energy is force over a distance, called Newton-Meters or Joules. Moving between the two when dealing with a Spring is a bit tricky since the force it takes to compact a spring can change at different points in the spring's range).

[vault3rb0y]

Thats fine i do it all the time . Maybe we should have broken this off into another thread.... oh well. And yea about the pole ratings... i dont they will change. We are just going to have to go by cm flex and not worry about how high "over your weight" the pole is. If we want to know how stiff the pole is compared to our body weight, we will just need to know the persons body weight and the flex of their pole, and estimate accordingly.

[powerplant42]

I was thinking about this last night. I'm having a thought... That there may be two types of comparative force, percentile and linear. Percentile would be something like a scale, and percentile would be a spring or pole. I'm still confused by this, so I'll start a new thread in PV General.

[dj]

hey

the body strength/power to body mass does play a roll in.. (first) the athletes running speed and (second) in the athletes ability to control and swing the bodies mass to vertical and above the grip..

how is this formula?

maximum body weight to physical height...

girls... 2 lbs per inch of height ie.. 5'8" = 68" X 2.00 = 136 lbs max.

boys... 2.25 lbs per inch of height ie.. 5'8" = 68" X 2.25 = 153 lbs max

when and athlete is over these percentages as a young, not physically developed athlete there seems to be more difficulty with the vault.

dj

[VTechVaulter]

just out of curiousity, where did you get those numbers for boys/girls 2, and 2.25

i mean i know we are talking about younger people here but, that would make someone whos 6'4 be 171lbs?!?

[dj]

hey vt

Stats from a lot of vaulters in the 70's and 80's (men) and the world list.

I actually had 2.25 to 2.50 for men.. but a 6-4 190lb high schooler' generally had some difficulty with strength to mass and also using a 190+ pole..

when the women started jumping the 2.25/2.50 didn't hold true.. the 2.0 was closer to correct.

mike tully was 6-4 191 for the '84 trials and 197 for the '84 games..

....and could power clean 302lb

i felt he was better at the 191..

in high school i think he started at 6-3ish 177 and jumped on a 14/170 until he jumped 13-6/14-0

tully, bell and roberts all jumped 18-6 or higher on a 5 meter 14.6 flex pacer (same pole).. gripping 15-7 to 15-10

all having different height, weight and body types........

i have used this "formula" more for beginners and in selecting vaulters, hoping to create a safer vaulter..

later

dj

[VTechVaulter]

yeah im about 185 so thats why i was just curious. thanks for the little calculator.. very cool