Advice on rockback and moving up a pole.

[GabeA]

So, my problem is that I do not finish the rockback, and get my hips up the pole, rather I shoot them out and "flag out". I know as well that my arm is collapsing at takeoff, and that I stuttered a bit in my run. Those are works in progress, my big issue is the rockback. My school is not well funded in the vault division, as we only have two poles that I am even capable of using, which are both rated under my weight. I am currently using a 14' 155 Pacer, gripping approximately at 12'6. Im not sure whether to move up grip to see if it makes things happen slower, or if I should move up to the bigger pole, a 15' 155 Spirit pole, which I might add, measuring up and gripping from the same spot as the 14' and even 6" higher, I was rejected every time I tried to make a jump on it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDAx0r3QYjU

[Tory]

How much do you weigh?

Your takeoff is under by at least one foot. You can't jump up very well if you're under. Move your step back. Clearly mark your takeoff with tape or chalk. Take the bungee down & swing to the back of the pit.

Stop worrying about anything after the takeoff until you fix your run, plant, & takeoff. What happens in the air is a result of what you do on the ground.

[KirkB]

Stop worrying about anything after the takeoff until you fix your run, plant, & takeoff. What happens in the air is a result of what you do on the ground.

+1

I know as well that my arm is collapsing at takeoff

There's nothing wrong with your arm collapsing - at your stage of developing proper technique. As you improve your run, plant, & takeoff, jumping UP and INTO the pole on takeoff (more UP than INTO), with your top arm fully stretched, your arm will not collapse, because your top arm will cause the pole to bend more - from the force of your run.

Kirk

[GabeA]

I'm between 162-165, so I'm over for the pole. It's all we have though. A foot under? I've measured up and it has been on? Should I be farther back on takeoff even from where I measured up? And as for jumping up and in to it, is it similar to a high jump takeoff? I've heard the basketball layup comparison, but I don't play basketball so I can't translate that feeling. Do I need to get my top arm up higher before I plant?

[GabeA]

I do work on my plant and run, here's two of better plants. Just that when I get to this point, I stop myself from swinging.

http://youtu.be/u_IP8nDZkW0
http://youtu.be/lHpZVjZWyQk

[KirkB]

I do work on my plant and run, here's two of better plants. Just that when I get to this point, I stop myself from swinging.

Yeh, you're blocking with your bottom arm. This is a bad habit that you will continue to do until you break it. And sorry to say (don't take this too negatively), your plant isn't all that great.

First, you need to understand that trying to force the pole to bend by bottom arm action is BAD. If you're in doubt about this, search on PVP for all the threads where this has been discussed. Search for "kirk bottom arm". Don't just take my word for it - also look for other coaches' comments, as there are some differing opinions. But I challenge any coach to explain to Gabe why his action with his bottom arm is GOOD.

Next, how to break the habit? You need to learn (or relearn) how to swing on the pole PROPERLY, without bending it at all. Again, there's lots of threads on PVP that you can search for re how to get back to basics with straight pole drills. Just search for "straight pole drills" (or maybe just "straight pole") to find advice on this.

NOW, get back to working on your run and plant - as advised earlier in this thread by Tory.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you're so worried about bending the pole with bottom arm pressure that you're not focused on improving your plant (including the last few steps leading up to the plant and takeoff). So that's why I'm suggesting that you get rid of your bad habit of bottom arm pressure before you try to complete any vaults with a bending pole. Others may have alternate advice for you, especially re your plant.

I notice that you entitled this thread as "Advice on rockback and moving up a pole".

I hope you now understand that your rockback and pole flex should NOT be your focus, at this stage of you learning proper PV technique. Bending the pole, and improving your rockback are the LEAST of your worries!

Sidebar: If you SWING properly (the kind of swing that you MUST use on a stiff pole), then THERE IS NO ROCKBACK! Check out my tagline!

Good luck.

Kirk

[KirkB]

A foot under? I've measured up and it has been on? Should I be farther back on takeoff even from where I measured up?

YES! You're 6-12" under, from what I can see. On your vid, place your fingernail on the top of your top hand and scroll up to see where your foot is. Or place your fingernail on your takeoff toe and scroll down. This assumes that the camera angle is at right angles to your takeoff point.

And as for jumping up and in to it, is it similar to a high jump takeoff? I've heard the basketball layup comparison, but I don't play basketball so I can't translate that feeling.

YES! But actually more similar to a triple jump or long jump takeoff. But for now, it wouldn't hurt for you to overemphasize the UPWARDS momentum (like highjump), and that can be flattened out later (like long jump).

Do I need to get my top arm up higher before I plant?

YES!

Kirk

[GabeA]

I'm not necessarily worried about bending the pole with my bottom hand, I actually try to get both arms as high as I can at takeoff, which happens late from what I'm understanding, at least for me. I was concerned about the rock back because a coach told me that I don't do it. What exactly is blocking with the bottom arm? I've seen it a lot on here, but I'm not entirely sure what it means. I never said my plant was good, I said I was working on it!

[GabeA]

I believe I know why I'm under. When I measure my takeoff, I may be too close.

[KirkB]

I was concerned about the rock back because a coach told me that I don't do it.

While it may be true that you don't rock back, it's far too early in your development to tell you how to swing (I never advise vaulters to rock back) - other than to tell you (AGAIN!) to fix your run, plant, and takeoff first. You have to learn to walk before you learn to run.

What exactly is blocking with the bottom arm? I've seen it a lot on here, but I'm not entirely sure what it means. I never said my plant was good, I said I was working on it!

There's a huge difference betweeen REACHING as high as you can with both arms, and PRESSING with the bottom arm. Yes, you should PRESS with the top arm, but you should only REACH with the bottom hand. No PRESSING!

Search for the posts where I've commented on pushing or pressing or blocking with the bottom arm; tell us what you've found; and THEN we'll guide you from there. I'm not going to tell you what my posts (or any other coaches' posts) said about the bottom arm push - you tell me, and then I'll tell you if you understood it correctly.

And while you're at it, prove to me that you've done your research, by telling us WHY you need to fix your run, plant, and takeoff before you worry about your swing (or rock back). All this information is readily available on PVP - you just have to search for it.

But again, Tory and I have advised you to work on the run/plant/takeoff. Don't worry about bending the pole, and don't worry about the swing ... yet.

Kirk

[GabeA]

Well, as I understand it, the run is crucial to the vault because it starts the sequence that carries out the vault, and if not done correctly will mess all the future parts up. The run should be consistent, building up speed as you go, and you should aim to initiate the pole drop 3 steps before the plant, 3rd step left foot left ear(for left handers, like myself) 2nd step, top arm should be completely extended upwards, I like to think think that the bicep touching the ear is a good reference(correct me if that is wrong). Last step, having your arms up already, this step is where you takeoff, jumping up, not forward. If the run is consistent, and you're not reaching for this last step, like most beginners seem to do, them things should happen smoothly from here. If the run is under, like mine is, I believe your hips drop, and your swing is blocked. The way you run is important as well. You shouldn't lean forward or back to compensate for the weight of the pole, you should be up, tall, just like you should take off. It should be burned in to muscle memory through repeated drills like pole runs. The plant should be tall, with your top arm being what loads the pole, and your bottom arm should not press forward, rather your bottom HAND press up. If done correctly, it should create a natural "rubber band" in the muscles, stretching back and then reflexively shooting forward to create that rowing motion that most people mistake as a forced row.

This is something I've seen said to nearly everyone seeking help, that it almost always starts with your run, and it's true. I don't argue one bit. I understand it, and will work on my own run, plant, and takeoff. I wasn't arguing, I was just relating the information I had gotten from another coach. Think of me like a bucket, and fill me with knowledge.

[KirkB]

That's pretty good.

... the run is crucial to the vault because it starts the sequence that carries out the vault, and if not done correctly will mess all the future parts up.

Yeh. Run AND plant.

... 2nd step, top arm should be completely extended upwards,

You don't have to have your top arm fully extended a full step before your takeoff. You just need to ensure that it's fully extended when you leave the ground. And (of course) you should leave the ground before (or at the exact same moment) the pole strikes the box (Petrov Model). Thus, it's less important to start the plant early (altho that's not a bad idea), and it's more important to have a QUICK plant, with a vigorous upwards thrust of the arm (like a basketball layup).

I like to think think that the bicep touching the ear is a good reference(correct me if that is wrong).

A better reference is feeling that your top arm is fully stretched, just like it's stretched on a highbar. PUSHING against the highbar - without shrugging your shoulders. As far as an ear reference goes, your top hand should pass in FRONT of your ear, keeping the pole close to your body (as opposed to a sidearm curl plant). Don't expect to be able to absorb the shock of the pole hitting the box with your top arm fully stretched at your stage of development. You have to work up to this - perhaps for more than a full year. Meanwhile, it's OK to shrug a bit to absorb the impact - just realize that this isn't good technique.

Last step, having your arms up already, this step is where you takeoff, jumping up, not forward. If the run is consistent, and you're not reaching for this last step, like most beginners seem to do, them things should happen smoothly from here.

Again, your arms should move up QUICKLY - not necessarily EARLY. Most importantly, you need to be fully stretched when the pole strikes. Thinking about this right now, I realize the contradiction - I'm saying fully stretched, yet I'm also saying it may take more than a year to develop physically enough to do this. Yeh, that's a big issue, and there's really no shortcuts. Train in the off-season (especially on gym apparatus) to develop your shoulder muscles. Also keep them flexible with lots of stretches.

The irony here is that if your plant and takeoff are smooth (no sudden jolts, and no "under" takeoff), then there's hardly any abrupt jolt on your shoulders at all. It's only when you're off (under, or late/incomplete plant, or lack of an up impulse on takeoff) that you will feel this jolt. But you must train for the MAJORITY of your jumps - which will not be perfect. Actually less than 5% of your vaults will be close to "perfect". So you need extra strength in your shoulders more for your worst jumps than for your best jumps.

If the run is under, like mine is, I believe your hips drop, and your swing is blocked.

The swing is not BLOCKED from being under. It's blocked from pushing with the bottom arm. If you're under and you don't press with the bottom arm (and if your pole is sufficiently flexible), you will still bend the pole, and you may still get a sufficiently good enough of a swing to clear the bar.

Your hips don't "drop". Rather, they won't be "raised up" as smoothly if your plant/takeoff isn't "on".

The way you run is important as well. You shouldn't lean forward or back to compensate for the weight of the pole, you should be up, tall, just like you should take off.

According to the Laws of Physics, you MUST lean forward or backward to compensate for the weight of the pole! (You and the pole are "one system".) However, you can mitigate this law by dropping your pole into the box - using gravity - so that you're not leaning back as much while running (and especially at takeoff). A gradual drop is best, but just be sure to FINISH your pole drop before you jump!

It should be burned in to muscle memory through repeated drills like pole runs. The plant should be tall, with your top arm being what loads the pole, and your bottom arm should not press forward, rather your bottom HAND press up.

You're almost there. Again, the bottom hand should not PRESS up - you should only REACH it up (Petrov Model).

If done correctly, it should create a natural "rubber band" in the muscles, stretching back and then reflexively shooting forward to create that rowing motion that most people mistake as a forced row.

If WHAT'S done correctly? The STRETCH is actually a separate action than the plant and takeoff, done IMMEDIATELY after takeoff. And the WHIP (downswing) is done IMMEDIATELY after the stretch. These are cognizant actions, meaning that they will NOT just "happen" if your plant and takeoff are good (as you seem to imply).

I get your point about the "rowing motion" and "forced row", but since "rowing" has a bad connotation in PV, I wouldn't use that word in the context of a GOOD connotation. Rowing is bad. SWINGING from the STRETCH is good.

Think of me like a bucket, and fill me with knowledge.

I would rather think of you as a young, aspiring vaulter that does his research to understand what's critical to your training and your technique, and not just expect coaches (online or in person) to hand it all to you on a silver platter.

So far, so good.

Kirk