Swinging a straight trail leg

[rbvaulter#1]

who are you rb vaulter?

[KirkB]

Master, the way that Bubka swung his trail leg in his 6.01 jump in 1997 (as shown in slo-mo on that vid) is fine. It's not perfect (IMHO), but there's hardly any knee bend in the trail leg. In my post above, I say that having a slightly bent knee similar to kicking a soccer ball is too much of a bent knee. I stand by that statement. You'll have to look at vid of a soccer player to see this, I guess, but I doubt that you'll see the slight knee bend of Bubka in any soccer player. This misunderstanding comes down to your definition of "slight".

Also, if you coach someone to keep their trail leg straight, but they bend it (slighly?) like Bubka, then all is well. But if you coach them to bend their trail leg "like kicking a soccer ball", they may just go overboard on this advice, and bend it TOO MUCH. You need only look at Tyler Porter's vid ("Think I finally figured it out." on the Video Review forum) to see an extreme example of this. He's over the top!

If you can point me in the right direction, I'll take a look at some of your vids too, and let you know whether I think you're bending it too extremely or not. And even if I think you are, that doesn't mean that you should shift your thinking on this for YOUR vault. You should continue to do what seems to work best for you ... with your eyes wide open. Teenagers don't have their eyes as wide open as yours ... they don't have the experience!

I'm also in a bit of a quandry on how detailed I should be in the Intermediate Technique forum on this topic, vs. the Advanced forum. You MIGHT be correct in saying that intermediates should "swing like they're kicking a soccer ball". However, I don't think it's too advanced for an intermediate to minimize the bend in his trail leg at the start of his downswing ... it's actually quite easy to teach and to do ... and I also think that if you wait until he or she becomes an advanced vaulter to teach this, then their habits have hardened so it will be more difficult to learn.

This may depend not only on your definition of "slight", but also on your definition of "intermediate" vs. "advanced" vaulter. I don't think there is ... or should be ... any hard and fast distinction based on PR for this ... it should remain as just a rough guide.

In the context of "that.rb.vaulter', whose PR is 3.50m (11-6), perhaps the soccer ball analogy is sufficient. But for an intermediate in the 4.00m-5.00m (13-1 to 16-5) range, probably not.

Kirk

[master]

If you can point me in the right direction, I'll take a look at some of your vids too, and let you know whether I think you're bending it too extremely or not. And even if I think you are, that doesn't mean that you should shift your thinking on this for YOUR vault. You should continue to do what seems to work best for you ... with your eyes wide open.

My vaults are full of deficiencies. I have been taught by some great coaches but I am not able to always implement what I know to be desirable. In particular, my whip-swing is less of an active event and more of just what happens "automatically". I have occasionally in practice been able to really apply an active swing and I have felt the benefit of it. I just can't seem to do it on a regular basis. All this being said, on this page there are links to several vaults from last year. (Unfortunately my more current jumping is not yet available on my pages.)

- master

[KirkB]

My vaults are full of deficiencies.

Master, you're just too modest! For having so many so-called "deficiencies", that was a helluva nice M60 WR that you set at Reno last year! 4.00m! 13-1.5"! Wow!

I took a look at your swing frame-by-frame. Sidenote: For others that want to view his vid ... it's already in QuickTime format, so no need to download or convert from Flash Video) ... just click PAUSE then use the left and right arrow keys on your keyboard to step thru the frames.

Your takeoff is very, very good. Your elastic stretch into the C is very, very good. And surprisingly, your trail leg is perfectly straight!

Now as you swing it, I do see that you tuck it in a bit ... just a tad ... very early in your downswing ... but that's not enough to worry about at all. It's essentially just as I recommended ... a straight trail leg downswing!

I wouldn't try to fix a thing there!

You are bending the pole before takeoff, but I imagine that at your age, that would be very hard to turn into a free takeoff. And I understand that you're not necessarily going for optimal technique as much as a technique that's not going to injure yourself. Being TOO far in might be unsafe, but being TOO far out might also be unsafe ... especially since you're not used to it.

Now ... if you don't mind a little critique ... ha! ha! ... I've never seen anyone hang onto the pole for quite as long as you do ... your whole body is over the bar except for your arms ... before you let go! Not much of a pushoff, I guess. What's your grip?

But the part of your vault that I like the best ... is that your hips are constantly moving upwards. I honestly can't count 2 consecutive frames where you're "stuck" in the "flat back" position. That's good! VERY good! I'm going to point all the teenagers to your vid, and tell them that if you can do it ... at your ripe old age ... then they can!

Kirk

[master]

Kirk,

Thanks for your kind comments, and your critique.

The video I have on my website is usually either .mov or .wmv. I like the .mov for the same reasons you do; it is easy to do frame-by-frame analysis using the arrow keys. However, the .wmv can also do frame-by-frame, you just have to use the mouse to actuate the advance. In Windows Media Player select View>Enhancements>Play Speed Settings. This displays two sets of arrow buttons. The first set changes the play speed and the other set does single frame motion. The single frame works well for me going forward but gets locked up going back. I haven't figured that one out so I just live with it. Anyway, that might make it more likely for you to look at some of the other vids.

Regarding holding on to the pole so long, that has been a characteristic of my vault since I started as a master. I attribute it to my lack of being lifted by the pole and that is because I'm not as in line with the pole as I need to be. In recent practices I have made some minor improvements getting closer to the pole and when I was successful at that, I was able to release my bottom hand more like I should. The jump you refer to was an extreme case of me holding on way to long. I have a jump from this last February that is better in this regard. (Look for it here.) It was video taken and processed by a fellow vaulter and it is in .mpg format which can be played by WMP also.

You asked about my grip: it is about 13-1 on my 13-6 PacerFX pole series and 13-4 on my 14' Nordic series.

- master

[KirkB]

Looking at your 12-6 (3.81) vault on this new link, I agree that your bar clearance is much better!

Let's break this down ...

Reasonably good pole carry and run. (I'm not the one to critique that part anyway.)

Not a free takeoff, but fairly close. The pole bends about 1.5 frames before liftoff. Not bad for a young man like you!

Good knee drive!

I really like your body posture as you pass thru the C. You let the bottom arm relax just about the right amount, so that you can drive your chest thru. And you top arm is just about right ... you let it go well behind your head ... which in turn lets the chest drive forwards. This is what keeps your pole rolling forward to vertical.

You do bend your trail leg more than I prefer in your downswing. It's not that bad ... just bent a tad too much. You'll get a more powerful swing if you tighten this up a bit. Practice is on a highbar ... of course!

Your swing is OK, but you should focus on trying to ACCELERATE your trail leg on your swing, to get more of a WHIP as you pass the chord. Your motions are fine ... it's just not quick enough.

In my tradition of counting the number of frames in the "flat back" position, I honestly can't count ANY! Very good ... very Petrovian!

Your back is abnormally stiff (straight) in the first "flat back" frame. While this is the way that a pure Petrovian would do it, I'm going to advise you here to tuck just a little bit. Yes ... I know you want to use the Petrov Model, but it just seems too "stiff" as you're swinging up into your inversion. I really think a slight curl in your back would be helpful here. Bear in mind that I'm only advising YOU to do this. A quicker, younger vaulter shouldn't try to tuck AT ALL! I hope you understand the distinction. Maybe you're lacking strong back muscles or something here. What do you think of a slight tuck? Just to curl the legs in a bit ... since you're flagging out too much. If you disagree, don't do it. It's just an idea to think about.

Again, your extension just seems too slo-mo. I think you can be faster than this. Do you remember my posts about "slinking"? I think that's what I'm suggesting in the previous paragraph. Search for "ki

And shoot more directly UP, instead of flagging OUT. It may psyche you out if you think that shooting straight UP will cause you to stall out. If you're on the right-sized pole, it really won't. You need to learn this technique on a soft pole, then work your way up. But ... focus on shooting more straight UP, and let the momentum of your run, takeoff, etc, carry you up and over the bar. I hope you know what I mean by this. You just need to worry about the vertical component of getting over the bar, and your already-pre-determined horizontal momentum is what will carry you horizontally over the bar. That way, you'll get far more lift ... UP. You can gain 12"+ just by this!

Right now, your pushoff isn't much. When you learn to extend VIGOROUSLY, then you'll get a much better pushoff. So without even raising your grip, you should be able to PR ... and break the WR!

Just speed up the parts that I've identified as being "too slow". I know that I should take age into consideration, but it's all relative. You just need to be faster than you are now ... even if you're not faster than a HS or college vaulter!

Let me know any part of this that you don't understand ... or that you disagree with.

Kirk

[Username?]

1. I doubt that you've swung on the highbar "perfectly" yet. Do you have the blisters ... and CALLOUSES ... to prove it? Tell me when you've done it 10,000+ times (I'm serious), and then let's talk!

I have plenty of blisters and callouses to prove it Kirk B, and insulting me about about my inexperience is getting you no where. It's simply so much easier to do it on a bar, to do it in a vault is much more complicated and the only real way to fix it, is to do it in the vault. Sure practicing it on a high bar might help you but it's so minute compared to as much as it would if you practiced it on pop ups or straight poling.

[powerplant42]

I have plenty of blisters and callouses to prove it Kirk B, and insulting me about about my inexperience is getting you no where. It's simply so much easier to do it on a bar, to do it in a vault is much more complicated and the only real way to fix it, is to do it in the vault. Sure practicing it on a high bar might help you do it in a vault but not nearly as much as it would if you practiced it on pop ups or straight poling.

Chill. KB is right. You probably think it's easier to do on the bar because there is no directly observable outcome (like height jumped) like there is in a vault. And the callouses (I'm assuming) are there because you're just starting to get on the bar, not because you've been doing 3 hours a day for ~3 years straight (10,000 hours).

[KirkB]

OK, I get it now ... you're that.rb.vaulter ... aka Username? It's a little confusing.

... I have plenty of blisters and callouses to prove it Kirk B, and insulting me about about my inexperience is getting you no where. It's simply so much easier to do it on a bar ...

My intent is not to insult you. My intent is to call bogus when you say you're swinging "perfectly" on the highbar ... and to inspire you to excel by hard work. And I mean REALLY hard work! At your age/grip it's just not possible to swing "perfectly".

In this quote, I underlined the parts where you're telling rather than asking ...

... to do it in a vault is much more complicated and the only real way to fix it, is to do it in the vault. Sure practicing it on a high bar might help you but it's so minute compared to as much as it would if you practiced it on pop ups or straight poling.

Well, OK then. I thought you were asking for help, but I guess not?

To receive good advice (so that you can use it to your benefit), you need to be receptive to good advice.

t.rb.v, it's rather ironic that you take my advice as insulting, and PP comes to my defence. More often, I'm reprimanding PP for using insulting language. If I came across as insulting, I certainly didn't mean it that way. I'd just like to help you, if you're open to my advice.

Kirk