Pole Pushing: Petrov Perfected?

[rainbowgirl28]

This brings up an interesting physics point.... yes im a big nerd i know. but physics is quite useful
if your running fast enough, the pole tip can not drop to the bottom of the box before it hits the back of the box. i dont know exactly how fast you would need to be running for this to happen, but my educated guess would be that most elite level vaulters would have a problem with this. Certainly guys like Buller, and Bubka, and Duplantis would have run into this. Granted most of us will never be that fast, but something to consider

Yes, that is the problem Tye ran into, as discussed on other threads.

[Pogo Stick]

if your running fast enough, the pole tip can not drop to the bottom of the box before it hits the back of the box. i dont know exactly how fast you would need to be running for this to happen, but my educated guess would be that most elite level vaulters would have a problem with this. Certainly guys like Buller, and Bubka, and Duplantis would have run into this. Granted most of us will never be that fast, but something to consider

Cannonball physic say if you are running 10 m/s then pole tip will drop down around 5 cm or 2" at the end of box. To reach the bottom of the box (20 cm or almost 8") you need to run much slower - around 5 m/s. For safe plant the pole tip can be few cm higher:

Code: Select all

speed   drop   drop
(m/s)   (cm)   (in)
5.0   19.6   7.7
5.2   18.1   7.1
5.5   16.2   6.4
6.0   13.6   5.4
7.0   10.0   3.9
8.0   7.7   3.0
9.0   6.1   2.4
10.0   4.9   1.9


This, of course, assume that you are not trying to push pole tip down.

[VaultPurple]

yeah thats the physics if you just run and hope it drops down. But you cant do that, just out of common since. But from experience and from observation I and you who are coming up with these theories can clearly see that it is wrong. I have succesfuly ran almost my full approach now and as long as i gab on with my left hand before my last step, the pole tip goes in the box. And most of you have seen Tye vault, and he is obviously running more than 5m/s and he manages to get the pole tip in the ground.

[rainbowgirl28]

if your running fast enough, the pole tip can not drop to the bottom of the box before it hits the back of the box. i dont know exactly how fast you would need to be running for this to happen, but my educated guess would be that most elite level vaulters would have a problem with this. Certainly guys like Buller, and Bubka, and Duplantis would have run into this. Granted most of us will never be that fast, but something to consider

Cannonball physic say if you are running 10 m/s then pole tip will drop down around 5 cm or 2" at the end of box. To reach the bottom of the box (20 cm or almost 8") you need to run much slower - around 5 m/s. For safe plant the pole tip can be few cm higher:

Code: Select all

speed   drop   drop
(m/s)   (cm)   (in)
5.0   19.6   7.7
5.2   18.1   7.1
5.5   16.2   6.4
6.0   13.6   5.4
7.0   10.0   3.9
8.0   7.7   3.0
9.0   6.1   2.4
10.0   4.9   1.9


This, of course, assume that you are not trying to push pole tip down.

I think there must be another force at work, perhaps the action of raising the top hand does create some downward pressure. Experience indicates that it is only an issue at very high speeds, and even then it is possible to manage it.

[KirkB]

... Cannonball physic say if you are running 10 m/s then pole tip will drop down around 5 cm or 2" at the end of box. ...

Pogo, can you explain your formula? Just for the 10.0 m/s example, which is assumed to be close to tops for a vaulter (e.g. Bubka was 9.94 m/s and Stevenson was 9.52). By comparison, Harvey ran 9.26 m/s carrying the pole; 9.74 m/s sliding it; and 9.93 m/s running without a pole ... so his numbers aren't significantly lower than Bubka's.

The box is 0.99m long (1.08 if you go by the top of the back of the box ... but our target is the bottom of the back of the box), and 0.20m deep. So I figure that 0.99m will be travelled by an elite vaulter in 99 msec. So the question is how fast gravity will accelerate the drop of the pole into the box ... at 9.8 m/s^2?

Can you tell us how you get 0.049m from that?

Actually, I would be more worried about the bounce effect if the runway isn't perfectly smooth near the lip of the box ... or if the lip isn't perfectly smooth to the runway ... or if the pole has been bouncing already from a flaw in the runway earlier on ... or if the vaulter is intentionally bouncing the pole.

Depending on the timing of the bounce, you might MISS the bottom of the box ... particularly if the duration of the bounce exceeds (or even approaches) the 99 msec that it takes the butt to travel the length of the box. According to the old threads on this, bouncing never seemed to be much of an issue ... but Harvey was experimenting with PURPOSELY bouncing the pole ... maybe to mitigate the issue of the pole not dropping quickly enough? I didn't read all the posts and threads ... there's quite a bit posted on this topic!

Tye Harvey did vault 18-8 (5.70m) this way, so I'm puzzled why he reports that he had issues with the pole dropping into the box. There is the fact that even if the pole hits 0.049m down into the box (instead of the full 0.20m), I ASSUMUE the pole will slide the remaining way down (it won't slide up, because the angle of the back of the box is only 105 degrees to the angle of the bottom plate of the box - not enough to pop it out).

But Pogo, this 105 degree angle is another trig puzzle I was wondering about. If a 6-0 vaulter has a high plant (say roughly 8-0 high) and a long pole (say 5.20m), what angle will he strike the back of the box at (in comparison to the 105 degree slant from the bottom plate)? So if he strikes it only 0.05m down, it will safely slide DOWN, right?

Kirk

[KirkB]

oh and if anyone says the pole tip problem could be fixed by adding weight to the end of the pole.. i will send you a very harsh message further detailing the physics of why

VTV, I found this from Oct 14 2007 in one of the old Pole Push threads. If you want to read the whole thread, just search for the typo ...

That is pretty difinative!

I'm going to have my vaulters start the season pushing. If it works then we will stick with it. ...

Also, you might suggest to Tye that he add some weight to the plug end of the pole to get it to drop into the box. A pound or so shouldn't affect his speed.

I wonder if it's a pound of feathers or a pound of lead!

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

Well, I think that Tye had consistency issues with it. Sometimes the pole hit the bottom of the box and sometimes it didn't.

I would never call the technique Petrov perfected. I think Petrov is appalled at the idea. And it's not a breakthrough that will ever lead anyone to break the world record.

But we live in an imperfect world. Few vaulters ever come close to realizing their max potential. Usually this is because of either mental weakness or technical weakness in the plant/takeoff. This technique seems to allow some vaulters to be stronger in both of these areas.

If you are in an area that has lippy boxes, I wouldn't bother with it. But these seem to be rare thing these days and rarely present a problem for most people.

I have received a lot of positive feedback from coaches over the past couple years who have tried this technique with their vaulters and had success. I am incredibly grateful that my coach in college was open-minded enough to allow me to try it, and defend me when the other coaches all asked him what the heck I was doing.

I don't think it is for everyone, but I do think it's something worth being open-minded about.

[KirkB]

Just judging by the dates on the multitude of threads and posts about this, was it more popular a few years ago? Maybe Tye's use of it raised the awareness of it? I read a lot of positive comments about it a few years ago. e.g. LoneStar.

Or maybe it's still alive and well, but it's run its course on PVP, and there's not much more to add this year?

Are college coaches more accepting of this technique for female vaulters today ... compared to a few years ago?

What top college or elite vaulters use it today?

Just curious.

Kirk

[rainbowgirl28]

Britni Lawrence just jumped 4.01 after a several year layoff, I am assuming she was still pushing the pole, but I don't know for sure.

I have been seeing it more at high school meets.

[Pogo Stick]

... Cannonball physic say if you are running 10 m/s then pole tip will drop down around 5 cm or 2" at the end of box. ...

Pogo, can you explain your formula? Just for the 10.0 m/s example, which is assumed to be close to tops for a vaulter (e.g. Bubka was 9.94 m/s and Stevenson was 9.52). By comparison, Harvey ran 9.26 m/s carrying the pole; 9.74 m/s sliding it; and 9.93 m/s running without a pole ... so his numbers aren't significantly lower than Bubka's.

The box is 0.99m long (1.08 if you go by the top of the back of the box ... but our target is the bottom of the back of the box), and 0.20m deep. So I figure that 0.99m will be travelled by an elite vaulter in 99 msec. So the question is how fast gravity will accelerate the drop of the pole into the box ... at 9.8 m/s^2?

Can you tell us how you get 0.049m from that?

That was quick calculation of horizontal cannonball shot assuming 1 m horizontal traveling distance for easy calculation. Formula is simple:
drop = (gt^2)/2
"g" is 9.81 m/s^2 (gravity).
"t" is time required for traveling horizontal distance of 1m (1m/speed). For 10 m/s velocity, you need 0.1 second to cover 1m.
My assumption is not 100% correct but is close enough. I don't want to complicate my life by calculating crossing point of pole tip path (parabolic curve) and back of the box (line). If you add all these details, pole tip position will be probably few milimeters deeper in box, but you got the picture.

I have succesfuly ran almost my full approach now and as long as i gab on with my left hand before my last step, the pole tip goes in the box. And most of you have seen Tye vault, and he is obviously running more than 5m/s and he manages to get the pole tip in the ground.

Tye can run at least 9 m/s while planting. Physics say for 9 m/s velocity pole tip will be around 6 cm in the box when hit the back of the box. I am sure this is not deep enough for safe plant. But, this is true only if there is no any additional force pushing the pole down. As Becca said, there must be another force. Raising hand create that additional force and tip drop faster. Raising hand also increase pole angle to ground (and the back of the box), and this helps pole tip to slide at the bottom of the box. Also, as you said, bottom hand grab the pole before last step. Then you can apply additional pressure with lower hand to allow pole to slide in the box.

But Pogo, this 105 degree angle is another trig puzzle I was wondering about. If a 6-0 vaulter has a high plant (say roughly 8-0 high) and a long pole (say 5.20m), what angle will he strike the back of the box at (in comparison to the 105 degree slant from the bottom plate)? So if he strikes it only 0.05m down, it will safely slide DOWN, right?
Kirk

It is puzzle, but quick calculation for such vaulter shows that angle will be around 90 degree so pole will be perpendicular to back of the box. That means pole will not go down in the box nor out of the box. This is interesting from theoretical point of view, but in real life there are other forces (see above). Also, after take off pole-vaulter system move forward and up and angle quickly decrease and pole tip go down.

[BritDawg]

VP, I will start by saying that I have dealt with negative comments about me pushing the pole for years now! The bottom line is, if you are moving bigger poles, gripping higher, jumping higher, and most importantly more confident, then keep at it!!!

I don't want to go into too much detail or try to convince people one way or another, but I was asked for my opinions, so here are a few.....

Powerplant......I am also confused as to why you think that by pushing the pole, you can't keep the pole moving up and forward at take off? You are still punching up with both hands at your take off just like you do when carrying the pole.

When and where to grap with your bottom hand........
You should never try to "aim" for a spot on the pole to grab. Your left arm should be moving in a natural running motion as you are running down the runway, and then at take off, the left arm should move in that same running motion but just continue up to the pole. This has always felt very natural to me. You should grab with your left arm as you are jumping off the ground. This allows you to use the punching action and force from the left arm to move the pole up and forward. If you grab with the left arm too early, you lose this action.

On the issue of the pole bouncing down the runway, missing the box, etc..........
I have never had this problem. You have to keep your right arm still as you are running to avoid the bounce. A girl I helped coach actually had trouble with this because she would bounce her right arm as she ran, which would make the tip bounce and sometimes catch a bad take off. I also talked to Tye about this, and as mentioned before, he would try to make it bounce so the tip would bounce into the box instead of moving straight to the back of the box because he was running so fast. I, of course, am not running fast enough for this to be an issue.

Pushing the pole is not for everyone, but it is definitely for me! I know for a fact that I would have never jumped as high as I have otherwise.

[VaultPurple]

Or maybe it's still alive and well, but it's run its course on PVP, and there's not much more to add this year?

Are college coaches more accepting of this technique for female vaulters today ... compared to a few years ago?

Saying theres not much to be added would be once a technique is compleately disected and there is no more to learn about it. People believe Petrov method is best but they are still discussing it every day. And it may very well still and continue to be the best. But that is kind of like the thinking back in early 1900s when they tried to pass a law saying there could be no more patents because everything that could be invented had been invented.

As far as college coaches go, I got my first taste this weekend. My coach loves it because I run twice as fast and was getting on huge poles from short run. There was definetly a lot of talk and I had a few athletes ask me why I was pushing and if that was just the way I learned, they were suprised to find out I just started practicing it that week. I also heard coaches talking about it and they all seemed pretty open minded and were trying to discuss advantages they could see from their stand point. Not sure if they gonna try to convert their vaulters right away or anything to that extream.

ok lets go through a few key notes here


-Signifigent increase in speed is notable
-Plant is simplified
IMO-Helps jump at take off, and makes it easier to take of 'On'.

-Once moderate speed is added, bottom hand or some force must be used to slide tip into box
-Missing the box is just bad, it will not slide in because of angle
-No matter how much weight you add to the tip, it will not help it fall into the box, just physics 101

-Ive also added you have to start to raise right hand before your last step thanks to pathagory therom. If arm is kept low then tip hits back of box when you are a few feet away. So you just have to adjust the timing issue.

But on that note I jumped at my first meet after two real practices at pole pushing.
A) I was .01 off of my pr
B) I went up to my largest competition pole and was holding down because I would crush it other wise
C) All this was from 7 instead of 8, Used same pole from 6 in warm up but wanted practice from longer run
D) Was holding about 9 inches lower this time than previous PR mark. Therefor 9 more inches of push off.
E) Jumped 13'7 with a 12'6 hand grip, and came very close to a new PR at 14'2
Other notable mention to advantage I gained was no issue with the bad cross wind blowing my pole as I tried to lower it