Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

[Bubba PV]

DJ worked extensively with Tully during this time and I have had many conversations about his vault with DJ. Mike doesn't much like to talk technique because he told me he isn't interested in other opinions or defending his position. Gotta like that about a guy. He told me that when he was doing some estate planning for the step grandkids so imagine how little he would tell you if he wasn't working with you. HaHa! He is very cerebral. Bubba

[KirkB]

Competed in 4 Olympics. 2nd in 1980, 1st in 84, NH in 88 and 92, winning Silver in 84

Something is wrong with his participation at OG. There is no way Tully competed in Moscow 1980 due to US boycott. For 88 and 92 I cannot swear, but I don't see him on the list of participants ...

Sorry, this was my typo. It should read: "Competed in 4 Olympic TRIALS." This accounts for why he wasn't at the 88 or 92 Olympics ... and how the hell he could place 2nd in 1980!

Even tho the US boycotted the 1980 Moscow Olympics, they still held the "1980 USA Olympic Trials". They were dubbed "The Trials to Nowhere".

Kirk

[KirkB]

I am convinced - the clip shows Tully jumping like Bubka before Bubka! No doubt about it. Now all we need is Bryde jumping like Bubka and we have it made - but I will take your word for it. ...

What bothers me is that if Tully was jumping like that with great success why did he not become the model for all US vaulters??

Good question! When I started looking at elite vaulters in about 2005 (after not following the sport for 30 years), I was quite amazed that there were so many elites pre-bending the pole (before takeoff) ... and so many blocking out with their bottom arm ... and tuck/shooting. I honestly couldn't understand how the PV world evolved to that ... until Pat explained it to me ... not that I understood it much better after he explained it.

I also thought my unique technique of raising of my trail leg (the Jump to the Split) would have become popular by now ... and to my amazement it really hasn't ... much. I still swear by this as optimal technique ... dormant for almost 40 years ... just waiting for someone to "popularize".

... were there no bio mechanists around to analyse what Tully was doing and to clarify his model and to show it was better than the usual rubbish that still persists -taking off under / big bend before you leave the ground?

Just what I was thinking! Another good question ... that might not get a good answer!

Perhaps what was needed at that time was "From Beginner to the Bryde Bend" or from "Toddler to Tully"?????? Would have saved a lot of bother, millions of words on PVP and perhaps even a couple of lives.

LOL! I appreciate you eating some humble pie on this Bubka before Bubka thing, Altius, but maybe what the USA needed was an author like you to take up the cause. Maybe you could have written a book about the Tellez Model.

I have to tell you tho ... I'm but a small peon in this sport ... a flash-in-the-pan. It takes a WR to be noticed ... no ... it takes MORE than a WR to be noticed ... even Isaksson, Roberts, and Tulley had WRs ... and they weren't "noticed" for their contributions to the Petrov Model. Not faulting you on this ... just pointing out how big of an impression Bubka made when he started whipping the asses of the Americans ... and the French.

Another example ... have you ever hear of Bruce Quandre? I didn't think so. Believe it or not ... he invented the Fosbury Flop!

Have you ever heard of Debbie Brill? Yes, I thought so. Her version was called the Brill Bend. She supposedly co-invented it ... with Fosbury ... in the same year. But it was Fosbury that got the Gold in the 1968 Mexico City Olympics, so guess who got credit for inventing it?

But as you now know, Bruce Quandre invented it FIRST ... and Brill and Fosbury just POPULARIZED it. Source: T&F News http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=18166

Bruce Quande flopped at the '63 Montana State HS meet. Story and picture in the July '00 edition of T&FN.

I was the Bruce Quandre of the PV ... even tho Isaksson's technique came before mine ... I just had a variant of his technique. My technique was actually much closer to Greg Duplantis' than to Isaksson's or Tulley's ... much more of an accentuated whip ... and early inversion ... on a big bend.

Here's Greg's vids ... would you call this the Petrov Model? http://mardigrastrackclub.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=36 Were you aware of his technique? He cleared 5.62 in 1986, and progressed up to 5.80 in 1993. Can't say that he was Bubka before Bubka becuz Bubka's technique was well-known by then ... but he certainly LOOKED like Bubka! No?

Kirk

[dj]

hey Kirk,

i have been coaching and teaching this "technical model" since the Mid 70's.. i started my first biomechanical breakdowns in the fall of 1974 with film and tracing paper on the wall of my office in the old Armory/Gym at Arkansas State.. Earl was a first semester Sophmore.. I traced Frame by frame of every vaulter, steel and fiberglass that i could get.. the Liburary even ordered film for me.. since we had no budget..

believe me i have taught the same as Tellez's "Model".. but have been "battled" many times by many coaches and athletes...

I/we had a phrase for a "free takeoff"... ours was "you have to hit the pole before it hits you".. in other words in addition to run fast, takeoff out and plant high.. you had to "attach" the pole before it hit the back of the box and "snatched" you off the ground and sucked your hips "under".. so you could not swing or move the pole to vertical...

i gotta' run but i have started some notes for this and the Advanced post..

later

dj

[altius]

"I don't know any other country so ridiculous about team selection." I know I am stupid but I cant let pass without comment. Australia must be the worst in this regard. In 04 NINETEEN year old wendy young jumped 4.40 at a gP meet - had medalled in our nationals was not picked for Athens. She reitred to get on with life and work as a geologist. Canada on the other hand took a 28? year old girl who jumped 4.41 in July O3 - did not get the qualifying height again - I think?? but was selected and finished sixth with 4.40! In 96 one of my javelin throwers threw 62 -54 or thereabouts - not selected because her next best throw was just under the OZZIE qualifying standard>

[master]

Another example ... have you ever hear of Bruce Quandre? I didn't think so. Believe it or not ... he invented the Fosbury Flop!

Have you ever heard of Debbie Brill? Yes, I thought so. Her version was called the Brill Bend. She supposedly co-invented it ... with Fosbury ... in the same year. But it was Fosbury that got the Gold in the 1968 Mexico City Olympics, so guess who got credit for inventing it?

But as you now know, Bruce Quandre invented it FIRST ... and Brill and Fosbury just POPULARIZED it. Source: T&F News http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=18166

Bruce Quande flopped at the '63 Montana State HS meet. Story and picture in the July '00 edition of T&FN.

According to this article, Dick Fosbury, born in March of 1947, was experimenting with what became his HJ style at age 16 while at Medford HS. http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Dick_Fosbury That would have made it 1963. Seems like that coincides time-wise with the Bruce Quande '63 photo. Very interesting. I knew Fosbury had used it while in HS. That is why I went looking for some additional references. Of course winning the Olympics with it was the real headline.

[rainbowgirl28]

"I don't know any other country so ridiculous about team selection." I know I am stupid but I cant let pass without comment. Australia must be the worst in this regard. In 04 NINETEEN year old wendy young jumped 4.40 at a gP meet - had medalled in our nationals was not picked for Athens. She reitred to get on with life and work as a geologist. Canada on the other hand took a 28? year old girl who jumped 4.41 in July O3 - did not get the qualifying height again - I think?? but was selected and finished sixth with 4.40!

Dana Ellis tied for 6th at the Athens Olympics with 4.40, she jumped 4.41, 4.42, and 4.43 in 2004 before the Olympics.
Stephanie McCann was 10th with 4.40, she also jumped 4.40 three times in 2004 before the Olympics.

Tilastopaja has Wendy Young jumping 4.40 once in March, with her next closest mark being 4.20. After she jumped 4.40, her best the rest of the year was 4.15. If Wendy Young was Canadian, she wouldn't have made the team either, since they require hitting A standard multiple times, which the Canadian girls both did that year. It sounds like Australia uses a pretty similar system to Canada, where they look at more than just the best mark.

Australia is in a tough situation since your seasons are reversed from most of the rest of the world, and it can be difficult for athletes to peak at multiple times of the year. I don't blame the athletics federation for wanting athletes to show readiness at a time closer to Worlds or the Olympics.

Also, 4th place medals in Australia? In the US we normally only give medals to top 3

[decanuck]

I am sure that it hurts Canadian athletes quite a bit that they get so little international experience. Athletics Canada only sends them to big meets if they think they are a good medal threat. The young guys don't get the experience they need to actually medal when they get better, and it seems to be pretty discouraging to hit the A standard multiple times and told you can't go because you didn't do it on enough continents or within three different time frames or whatever. I don't know any other country so ridiculous about team selection.

If Wendy Young was Canadian, she wouldn't have made the team either, since they require hitting A standard multiple times, which the Canadian girls both did that year. It sounds like Australia uses a pretty similar system to Canada, where they look at more than just the best mark.

Astutely observed, and well said. The ridiculous selection criteria you refer to are so complicated they need to be represented via flow chart to be remotely comprehensible to anyone but logicians and lawyers. For a larf, check out the one for Beijing 2008 on page 8 of this PDF.

In addition to the complicated requirements for periodic performance repetition, there are difficulties even when an athlete achieves the (supposedly) selection-guaranteeing "A+" standard within the relevant period. Kelsie Hendry had two of her 4.55m A+ jumps thrown out for such compelling reasons as:
- being achieved at elevation (because elevation is cheating, don't you know)
- being achieved in a competition with less than two competitors (this one is so ridiculous I can't even think of a sarcastic joke)
- being achieved at a meet that is insufficiently high-profile (because apparently it's too darn easy to achieve A+ standards at venues without excellent administration, officiating, and competition)

So in spite of hitting the 'auto' qualifier A+ standard twice, Kelsie only qualified under the 'rising stars' category for getting two B standards and winning Trials/Nationals--which she came one opening height attempt away from failing to do.

But all is not lost for the unlucky. Thankfully athletes who achieve standards in a manner or timing outside the selection criteria can always appeal to the selection committee. Unfortunately this process has been demonstrably dominated by administrators' self-interest, regionalism, and favouritism.

In contrast, as heartbreaking as the USA Olympic Trials can be for some athletes, it is at least a fair, respectable, transparent, no-bullshit process. Critics of this process should take heed of Athletics Canada's selection process and imagine that kind of nincompoopery on an American scale (i.e. multiplied at least 10-20 times over). Now that would be one massive stinking pile of bull s***.

[golfdane]

A large number of top foreign athletes have never had a random out of competition drug test. This is why more Americans test positive: more Americans are tested!

While that may be true for some sports, do I highly doubt that it is the case for pole vault. Sure, I've seen reports on WADA officials getting cheated by chinese "bureaucracy" that seems to be designed to keep athletes (anyone recall when chinese women were shattering the world distance running, claiming their success to drinking blood of turtles?) away from WADA, but pole vault is dominated by Europe, Australia and USA. All of these perform regular tests all year round. Russia is not as closed as it once was, and a large number of russian athletes or athletes from former russian republics, are living and training outside of Russia.

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/WADA_2008_LaboratoryStatisticsReport_Final.pdf