Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

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polevaulter08nw
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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby polevaulter08nw » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:41 pm

altius wrote:" but at some of his meets he would have gone out at lower height" Which meets Becca? -were you there? - If so when and where? Or have you seen film - if you have I would like to see it! :devil:



Why must you so forcefully deny the differences from vaulting in the 1980's and 90's to now. If shorter pegs, volsing, and rounded cross bars don't make a difference then why were the rules changed? Obviously the physical and technical jumping ability of a vaulter is not affected by by shorter pegs and rounded cross bars, however these circumstances certainly affect the final results in a meet by creating a less forgiving venue.

It is apparent that Bubka did vols in the meet when he set the indoor world record, this is not new or news to me or many of my vault friends...
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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:11 pm

trackpole wrote:Regardless of how he did it, Bubka has the best technique in history of the pole vault. He just needs to give credit where credit is due.


Trackpole quit talking out of your butt. This whole discussion is getting out of control, now I know why Becca puts a stop to threads like this. Why would Bubka give credit to an event where he COMPLETELY DOMINATED since the 80's?? I think the reason he says this is because there have been athletes just as athletic/ talented as him but their technical errors limit their potential. So good enough athletes with not good enough techniqye.. Why does that bother you so much.

My key points
1) Regardless of drug suspicion's we shouldn't speculate, just makes the sport we love look bad.
2) Bubka did Volz and hit bars, I have seen it on film several times..... Granted he never touched the bar when jumping at a WR (That I have seen)
3) I also think it is pointless to speculate on how high Bubka could have jumped. I think he may have been able to jump 6.20-6.25... But I think for him to have jumped those heights he would of needed someone pushing him and challenging him. I also think if the existing WR was 6.15 when Bubka came along that we would of seen some 6.20 jumps. He did all of this without much competition, that is the most amazing part to me.
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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby Bubba PV » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:55 pm

I have something I think we all may agree on - Sergey was a much more polished technician in his early to middle career. After that he augmented his technique with sheer speed and power. Bubba

"Americans show great entusiasm but regularly break the rules of physics. Many are more talented and should vault higher. Our vaulters treat the sport more like a job and rarely disobey the laws of physics."
Petrov @ Reno in 1994
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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby dj » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:16 pm

hey

thanks so much for this statement Bubba..

Petrov
"Americans show great entusiasm but regularly break the rules of physics. Many are more talented and should vault higher. Our vaulters treat the sport more like a job and rarely disobey the laws of physics."
Petrov @ Reno in 1994


every technical question on here, every coaching point on PVP goes directly to physics...

the reason we still have "debates" and really poor coaching, high school and college alike..is the lack of the very basic physic... coaches have this tremendous "knowledge" if you can call it that, of what a vault should (they think) look like but zero knowledge of how it should feel or why and how the parts happen because of physics and in a "chain' fashion... yes we do have SOME quality coaching...

but i'm continually appalled and frustrated because i see 24 year old vaulters who have had 4 to 8 years of high school and college coaching AND every "camp" coach with a reputation... and they are not even close to jumping according to physics or to correct technique!!! Talent without knowing how to use it.. muscular weaknesses that have never been addressed.. so even if they were asked to change the weak muscles would not allow for it..

i have taken several of these athletes and 'corrected" within weeks.. with a foot or more PR.. why they were not corrected years before!!! i don't have an answer...

the correct physics has been posted on here... Petrov's article clearly states the CORRECT physics... Alan seems to state the correct physics.. are we missing something!!! a correct pole carry.. a fast accelerated approach run.. a penultimate.. out takeoff.. high plant... and swing vertically off the top.

dj

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby Andy_C » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:41 pm

Bubba PV wrote:I have something I think we all may agree on - Sergey was a much more polished technician in his early to middle career. After that he augmented his technique with sheer speed and power. Bubba

"Americans show great entusiasm but regularly break the rules of physics. Many are more talented and should vault higher. Our vaulters treat the sport more like a job and rarely disobey the laws of physics."
Petrov @ Reno in 1994


I definitely agree with that Bubba!

I generally find that American coaches in particular are a lot more "libertarian" with their "technical philosophies" about the vault - not everybody of course. While I believe that this libertarianism will definitely have it's advantages elsewhere in life, I really think it can be a disadvantage in the pole vault which I would treat as an exact science. In my opinion, the great enthusiasm that Petrov talks about manifests as a huge drive for innovation where people are trying to come up with tons and tons of new and creative stuff. However, the inspiration of that creativity will go a long way in determining the success of your actions! It's a matter of asking, "is my creativity based on evidential science or something else?" Unfortunately, most of the creativity going on is based on trying to figure things out in the dark - preconceived beliefs, trial and error. The worst offender is by assessing the vault purely by subjective observation. May I add that this subjectivity prone to faults in judgement! The physical theory of the pole vault has no opinions, only facts. What lacks in the US is a scientific theory and approach - much like a science job! Fortunately that's all been done, so nobody really has to do any more of that, it's all a matter of following the theory and applying it. The theory, all of it, already exists because the pole vault is a finite physical science. There's a huge difference between finding answers in the pole vault and something else like psychology and sociology. The former has an answer with a beginning and an end, the latter can have answers that never stop developing! If there is a question there is an ideal answer, however applying it is a slightly different story but I won't get into that right now. But if somebody asks how should I carry the pole? How should I plant the pole? ect. - there is a correct and exact answer to that question! This isn't interpretive dancing. People may have tendencies and strengths in certain places, but they must all aim to achieve the exact same thing! It's not a matter of playing to your strengths, instead it is the ability to use your strengths to help you achieve the perfect technique. Do that and you will undoubtably jump higher.

It is in my firm belief however that the US has it within itself to be the most dominant pole vault country. The talent and spirit is undoubtably all there - these are probably the hardest things to get. It's a matter of altering the mentality and focus. I think pole vaulting is less of a 'philosophy' and more of an exact science - this is coming from a person who loves philosophy, psychology and sociology! It is not a matter of creative interpretation, instead it is a finite science. While people may wonder, what about the application? Well, that application won't matter if you're thinking the wrong thing! All of this is going to be extremely difficult especially for a large country. But coming from the US and travelling all around the world I've come to realize that Americans, socially, have an ability to do something better than anybody else - adapt. When will the US wake up? I don't know, but it will be a tremendous shame if it never happens.

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby Bubba PV » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:06 pm

Very well put Andrew. Having spent time with you in Sydney I came to appreciate your wisdom and insights and have great respect for your opinions. Oh yeah, and your friendship. Thanks for the thoughts! Bubba
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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:00 am

:yes:

I didn't agree with much on pg 1 of this thread, but I agree with almost all of you guys on pg 2! :yes:

Well said ... KE, DJ, Andy, Bubba!

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby Andy_C » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:05 am

Thanks for the kind words Bubba!

The US needs more guys like you! And even though I'm an Aussie coach and vaulter now, I would still like to see the US succeed. After all, I was and will always be a SoCal kid ;)

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby altius » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:51 am

"Alan seems to state the correct physics". Lucky I was sitting down when I read this dj!!!!

From what I can understand from Niels Olafson, the Dutch have a pretty laissez fair attitude to technique -and tend to favour German over Russian methods.

Would love to see the clip of Bubka voltzing!!! can someone put it up. I thought he was usually travelling too fast to grab the bar ;)
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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby master » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:19 am

joebro391 wrote:I know the meet becca is talking about, the one in Donetsk, and yea, he volzed his 3rd attempt at 5.90, however, that was one occasion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWGyzPNXI_U (at 6:49).


Looks like it was posted on page 1. Also looks like the vault just before 6:49 was an unsuccessful Volz attempt.
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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby mjb » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:58 am

Why does Altius defend Bubka so much. If you know so much about Bubka you would know that there are many jumps where Bubka hit the bar and it stayed up, maybe not on his world record attempts but for sure on the one's leading up to it, "with short pegs they are misses". Volzing, he did not do much of but before the world indoor record it is for sure very visible. With all the rule changes the event has changed. "Drugs" lost cause to even talk about becuase people can speculate but at the end of the day he was never positive. "Technique", if we all jumped like Bubka maybe we would all jump a little higher, but we don't all jump like Bubka and we don't all get coached by Petrov, or even Parnov who in my eyes with 3 guys over 6 meters is the bst coach out there. There are a good crop of vaulters and two in particular that go high in the air like Hooker, and Lavillenie. They may not jump like Bubka but they go high in the air and it is only a matter of time until that record goes down. Instead of spending so much time critiquing what they can do better lets get behind them and cheer them on. :D

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Re: Bubka says current pole vaulters lack technique

Unread postby altius » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:15 am

"you would know that there are many jumps where Bubka hit the bar and it stayed up". But I do not know that!! Thats the problem. I keep hearing about all these mythical jumps where he hit the bar but no one actually provides evidence. I have probably watched as many Bubka jumps as most non Russians and I have yet to see him hit a bar - that has stayed on!

"Hooker .... may not jump like Bubka". But he does or haven't you noticed. Sure his STYLE is different but his TECHNICAL MODEL is the same. But perhaps you dont understand the difference.

"Parnov who in my eyes with 3 guys over 6 meters is the bst coach out there". Very astute of you to recognise that. Almost as astute as I was to bring Alex from Russia to coach in Australia in 1996.

"it is only a matter of time". Good - it has been almost SIXTEEN YEARS! Even better if it is an OZZIE that does it, so I will certainly " get behind them and cheer them on".
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden


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