Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

[baggettpv]

Kirk,
Thanks for the compliment. I think I will write a booklet on Athletic Training. Specifically the 3 facets, Tech., Physical and Mental. After 26 years of coaching I should have a few things to share. I've been thinking about this booklet for about 10 years now, since I did the "Coaches Hip Pocket Guide"....
It started out as a master project in Educational Computers as a program the tested athletes in 5 basic abilities then took the test results into a series of sequenced training activities then placed the activities into a 6 week structured periodized schedule. My advisor wouldn't accept it as a Masters Project becuase he didn't feel that Computerized Training Programs had any future. It was 1989.. HAHA was he stupid!! But he had a Phd in Math...
By the way, I am doing a 3 day training session Dec 28 - 30 from 11 am to 5. I will be applying alot of my training techniques to the athlete at that time. check out www.willamettestriders.com for more info soon. We will even go over the application of the POLE CLIMBING Drill and the proper execution of a Jagodin (and how to measure the efficiency)

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[Andy_C]

Of course the purpose of a drill is to achieve a desired result. But we also have to note that *a* way of doing a drill is *one* means to *one* end! Due to the direct causal relationship of the performance of a drill and the effect it will have on an athlete - doing a drill in different ways WILL create different results, intended or otherwise.

Keeping in mind that a drill is basically an attempt to isolate an element of the entire action, you seriously need to consider what is involved if you want to change it. Yes, you may achieve something out of doing a drill a little bit differently - but you may do so at the expense of another element of the whole which you have not thought about. Herein lies another danger of coaching. It's like walking across a two way street, concerned only with the traffic only coming from one direction. Don't let something you've overlooked bite you in the butt!

Now, for this drill; your ultimate goal in the pole vault is to jump with a higher grip
So why would you want to practice a low gripping drill?
The bottom line is always practice your drills like you're actually vaulting.

On the topic of training principles, very good coaches seem to train in a very similar manner as Altius pointed out. Even if you are not a genius with an extensive theoretical and practical background, you can still use your basic logic to deduce that there must be something right about training this way! Of course every coach should be encouraged to learn the various theoretical and practical components that underpin a successful training method. Also just to reinforce a point; like drills, applying different training principles will produce different results regardless of your intention. In an environment as complex as pole vault coaching, different roads almost never lead to the same place even if it may seem like they do. If you want to follow Petrov/Parnov/Botcharnikov/Launder/Stewart/whoever... you need to apply their training principles, otherwise you're on the highway to another city whether you like it or not!

P.S. I've been in a car for too long today, I think that's enough street/highway analogies for one day

[vault3rb0y]

Now, for this drill; your ultimate goal in the pole vault is to jump with a higher grip
So why would you want to practice a low gripping drill?
The bottom line is always practice your drills like you're actually vaulting.

Well, because overusing one drill eventually makes you lose track of what you are actually trying to do in the vault. This has all been said and reviewed and we all know what to look for. Just be careful with what you say, because your 'bottom line' can be misconstrued if you don't understand the purpose of a particular drill!

I guess if you change the the drill in any way, you dont call it a jagodin anymore because the motives behind it have changed. But i certainly see more relevance to sand vaulting than just maxing out your grip, and i think we all agree you shouldnt max your grip out in the vault if your technique is not ready for it.

[powerplant42]

But i certainly see more relevance to sand vaulting than just maxing out your grip, and i think we all agree you shouldnt max your grip out in the vault if your technique is not ready for it.

This is where the contention is.

Since altius is already involved I'll pose him a question (which is answered in BTB2 by the way): How long does it take before a new vaulter is maxing out their grip during this drill in the Adelaide system?

[kcvault]

All drills in the vault should be taught with a low grip first and then the grip should be inched up doing it right with each grip. For example you start with standing grip + 3 feet and you do the drill correctly you move your grip up, every time you do the drill right you move your grip up, then you do the drill correctly but don't roll the pole to verticle it is time to either lower your grip a little and do a bunch perfect at this grip, or it is time to move your step back a left and do the same thing from that left until you come to this point again. (Not to say that there is not a grip that is to low to do the drill correctly with to much pole speed you might not have time to feel the correct body position, or in a swing up the vault could be over to quickly to get anything for it.) Any pedagogy class will tell you you learn how to do things properly then you add speed, or difficulty in the case of a pole vaulter grip height, you can continue to increase speed and difficulty until the athlete can do the drill perfect at competition speeds. If at any time the athlete is not able to do the task right at full speed, you take a step backwards and decrease the speed and difficulty so that they do not develop bad habits. It is important to note that no matter how proficient an athlete is at a skill at some point they must come back to basics if they want to continue to improve or at least stay at the level they are at. (This is mostly done in the pre season but can help at any point of the season when struggling with a skill.) I know there are many ways to skin a cat but there is only one right way to learn proper technique and movement in any sport. That is you learn the skill first and then you increase speed and difficulty. I have spent a lot of my life learning modified technique that produced instant results and then had to break my technique back down to basics taking a step backwards and learning how to do it the right way. The fact is for this drill there is not some magical exception that only applies to it. You can not grip high and expect your form will magically fix itself otherwise when you raised your grip everything would have fixed itself (obviously not true). Learn how to do the drill right and then you will be able to grip much higher, it is never you grip higher and magically everything happens correctly. Also like 3p0 said for the love of god quit trying to prove your point by merely using big words, I think most the people on here including myself are either kinesiology or bio mechanics majors and most of them have a lot better grasp on what those words mean then you do. Just keep it simple that way everyone can understand what you are saying. I know I already said this but I wanted to say in one more time practice does not make perfect, practice merely reinforces habits weather bad or good. Therefor only perfect practice makes perfect. Meaning if you don't lower your grip and do the drill right not only well you never be able to do the drill right but you will also see very little improvement on grip height.

---Kasey

[dougb]

We are not trying to grip high, we are trying to vault high.

Doug Balcomb
PV Coach, Colfax HS

[kcvault]

We are not trying to grip high, we are trying to vault high.

This statement is dead on thank you for putting it clearly, this is much better then my jumbled thoughts.

--Kasey

[Andy_C]

Well I guess that "bottom line" will have some exceptions. The classic examples I can think of are exaggeration drills. But the point remains, the closer you make the drill to the actual vault the greater the learning value you will gain from it. The best drills are always the closest in relation to the actual vault and are more often than not the simple ones.

And in terms of gripping high, I need to clarify that I'm not advocating that you grip as high as possible in every instance - especially true for beginners who shouldn't push their grip height until they're consistent and have a solid understanding what they're doing and what's going on.

Forgive me if I was unclear with what I said beforehand, perhaps I didn't spend enough time thoroughly explaining what I intended to say. If people were assuming that I was saying things magically get better if you grip higher, then that is incorrect. I am saying that you need to actively challenge your grip on a regular basis if you wish to improve. Spending too much time on low grips won't lead to much improvement for anybody beyond a very basic level. On top of that you run the risk of developing bad habits like a poor/weak take off and a poor plant amongst other things since you can be lax with a lower grip, not dissimilar with practicing on soft bending poles all the time. Also a very good way to keep track of the efficiency of your ground work (run/plant/takeoff) is to see how your grip improves *while still executing things properly, making it to the pad safely* - especially on a stiff pole. And of course, a higher grip goes hand in hand with a higher vault. Not always true for situations where things are technically VERY wrong, but I think we can all get the gist of what I'm saying.

There is a time and place for gripping low especially for beginners with regards to safety. Once all the safety considerations have been thoroughly addressed in a beginner however, you need to constantly work to get a higher grip *again, without forsaking everything else*. Also noting that "constant" does not mean "push your max grip in every single jump you do" - just to clarify. I'm using "constant" as a relative term!

And I REALLY want to clarify, I'm not saying that people should not be gripping "above their means". If you're gripping so high that you can't accomplish anything what good will that do you? I really want to clarify this and I do agree with you KC that you should start low and build up. But my point is to always work on building up! Spending too much time on a low grip won't accomplish anything.

Keep in mind, everything that goes into an improved grip:
a free and powerful take off
a high plant
good planting motion
solid body position at take off
driving the free heel through the glutes
pushing up with the arm
driving the chest and attacking
a solid, smooth and efficient run up
ect.

These are all things to do with the run up, plant and take off. May I remind all Petrov followers out there the importance Petrov placed in the run up, plant and take off. And coincidentally, if you are working to increase your grip properly, you will be working on all of these things which are extremely important. I could even go as far to say that you will be working on the very things that will make or break the vault. Such is the value of practicing with a high grip - especially on a stiff pole.

[kcvault]

especially true for beginners who shouldn't push their grip height until they're consistent and have a solid understanding what they're doing and what's going on.

And I REALLY want to clarify, I'm not saying that people should not be gripping "above their means". If you're gripping so high that you can't accomplish anything what good will that do you? I really want to clarify this and I do agree with you KC that you should start low and build up. But my point is to always work on building up! Spending too much time on a low grip won't accomplish anything.

I am actually trying to make this point but am not very articulate. It is definitely true the higher you can grip and do things right the better, and it is necessary to continue to push the grip up to get better. If you have a high grip that you can always do the drill right with definitely don't lower it, just don't raise it before your body understands what to do.

I agree with everything you are saying especially with a stiff pole. I think you would agree that with a flexible pole grip height does not always mean a higher jump even with the same technique. For example I can not jump as high on my biggest pole holding 15-4 as I can holding 15 ft on the same pole. Not because of technique because the pole is softer holding that high, and the recoil is not as great. Also I think you would agree even with perfect technique on a steel pole if your grip height is to high and the pole is one foot from vertical you are not pushing off from as high of a point so it would be the same as holding lower. In this case if you were to lower grip and roll the pole to vertical it would be a higher vault since you would be pushing off from a higher point. (I would like to say again I completely agree with your post.)

---Kasey

[KirkB]

especially true for beginners who shouldn't push their grip height until they're consistent and have a solid understanding what they're doing and what's going on.

... you should start low and build up. But my point is to always work on building up!

... I think you would agree that with a flexible pole grip height does not always mean a higher jump even with the same technique. ... if you were to lower grip and roll the pole to vertical it would be a higher vault since you would be pushing off from a higher point.

Interestingly, this advice is not just for Petrovers. Here's what Tim had to say about this topic today in the "Missing the Pit" thread here: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=18774&start=24

It is my opinion that most talented vaulters would do much better learning efficiency from a short run rather than trying to raise their grip. If you are gripping 16'5" and jumping 18' that is bad news for you. In this case, what is the plan for jumping higher? Are you going to grip 17'5" to make 19'? Something has to change, and grip height is not the answer. ... I think that if an athlete would learn decent stiff pole technique and then to jump high with a low grip, the habits that make vaulting potentially deadly to talented athletes would never show up in the first place.

I also happen to know that Joe Dial (originator of the Dial Model aka Drive Model) trains his vaulters using this same philosophy.

Kirk

[Andy_C]

especially true for beginners who shouldn't push their grip height until they're consistent and have a solid understanding what they're doing and what's going on.

And I REALLY want to clarify, I'm not saying that people should not be gripping "above their means". If you're gripping so high that you can't accomplish anything what good will that do you? I really want to clarify this and I do agree with you KC that you should start low and build up. But my point is to always work on building up! Spending too much time on a low grip won't accomplish anything.

I am actually trying to make this point but am not very articulate. It is definitely true the higher you can grip and do things right the better, and it is necessary to continue to push the grip up to get better. If you have a high grip that you can always do the drill right with definitely don't lower it, just don't raise it before your body understands what to do.

I agree with everything you are saying especially with a stiff pole. I think you would agree that with a flexible pole grip height does not always mean a higher jump even with the same technique. For example I can not jump as high on my biggest pole holding 15-4 as I can holding 15 ft on the same pole. Not because of technique because the pole is softer holding that high, and the recoil is not as great. Also I think you would agree even with perfect technique on a steel pole if your grip height is to high and the pole is one foot from vertical you are not pushing off from as high of a point so it would be the same as holding lower. In this case if you were to lower grip and roll the pole to vertical it would be a higher vault since you would be pushing off from a higher point. (I would like to say again I completely agree with your post.)

---Kasey

Well it seems we are in agreement!

I agree of course, about overgripping and such. It's not good (or healthy) to just jump and jump on grips that are way too high. You need to make well informed decisions about what grip is appropriate for you. But having said that, my point was that you need to work to improve that "appropriate grip" constantly, particularly on the stiff pole for training purposes and I'm sure you'll agree with that.

It is my opinion that most talented vaulters would do much better learning efficiency from a short run rather than trying to raise their grip. If you are gripping 16'5" and jumping 18' that is bad news for you. In this case, what is the plan for jumping higher? Are you going to grip 17'5" to make 19'? Something has to change, and grip height is not the answer. ... I think that if an athlete would learn decent stiff pole technique and then to jump high with a low grip, the habits that make vaulting potentially deadly to talented athletes would never show up in the first place.

I also happen to know that Joe Dial (originator of the Dial Model aka Drive Model) trains his vaulters using this same philosophy.

Kirk

It's quite true that efficiency from a short run is very important. I'm not sure I would put grip height and efficiency from a short distance into a direct comparison to value one over another - though you probably could pull together data that may come to a conclusion. Instead I would tie that all in together. Short run, stiff pole, high grip. Eliminate all chances for a person to "cheat". You'll get a lot of the situations where people grip high but don't jump very high above their own grip because they've been allowed to cheat on a bending pole. Bend the pole more and of course you can grip higher, but that's not what we're after!

2/4/6 step (1/2/3 lefts)
stiff pole
work to increase max grip
maintain good technique

Not for beginners and first timers, but very effective. The people gripping high on the bending pole by cheating (taking off under, flat and bending the daylights out of a pole) will definitely not have an easy time with this drill. Alternatively, all the conditions that you create from performing this drill very well will set you up for a solid aerial element. The importance of the grip is one part of a whole. Had I known this topic would end up being more than just about the grip I would have said things differently!

But that's the nature of conversations in this forum - like a run away freight train!

[vault3rb0y]

I get the feeling that if we all sat next to a sand pit and watched athletes of all levels work their sand vaults and jagodins, we would all say and agree nearly 100% on what changes they should make and what they should do to improve. A picture is worth a thousand words, so by now we have about 18 pictures on this thread, and a video is worth 1000 pictures. So we are really only 1.8% as far as we would be from this whole thread than if we sat down together and watched people vault and drill.

Personally, im satisfied that the majority of us are on the same page even if we argue over semantics, because i don't think its theories getting distorted, its just words!