Grip Height for Stiff Pole Jagodins

[VaultPurple]

AVC, I think, no, I KNOW that you're a great coach. You've produced outstanding vaulters like Jason here... However, Launder is also a great coach... nobody's going to argue that I hope! But there are conflicting points of view between you two. One has to be right. I'm siding with altius on this one. Don't think for a secon

d that I thought this one up for myself.


There is no conflicting point here. You make it seem like people are arguing two different styles of vaulting. Everyone on here knows what that drill looks like and how it follows the petrov model, and pretty much everyone on here tries to confide to that model. The only person on here that I have seen vault with an extreme tuck and shoot style is KC and he has posted videos doing the same drill you are trying, but he does it with a 10' grip and a free take off trying to get closer to a petrov like technique (yes 10' and he jumps 5.40 and not 3.50)

And you even seem to try and twist what people say just to make a point that is not there. Alan said it was not true that grip height had nothing to do with technique. It does have to do with technique meaning if it improves. So if your technique improves your grip height will improve. He did not say jumping with a high grip will give you better technique! So here is a long term experiment you can do. ..... Find out what your max straight pole grip height is. Then do the straight pole jagodins for 2 weeks and see how much your grip height increases. Then after that two weeks, drop your grip a foot to six inches and practice it by hitting your chest into the bar and letting your leg stay back with your hips and do that for two weeks and only move up grip if your are doing it right and can do it right with the higher grip, then after that two weeks try the jagodin again trying to grip as high as you can with any technique... Now compare which is the highest!

No one is arguing different techniques or training methods here. Just that they are different and that one may help you more than others. So quit being so defensive and quoting BTB like it is scripture and because you have read it, you understand everything about it. There are many things in pole vault that can not be described in a book or even in words, every vaulter just has to learn to understand them at their own pace and some things just click over time.

[rainbowgirl28]

That's funny, I don't remember hearing Petrov's opinion anywhere on how to teach this drill to beginners. I just remember seeing video of him coaching elite athletes.

[altius]

"There are many things in pole vault that can not be described in a book or even in words, every vaulter just has to learn to understand them at their own pace and some things just click over time." Sounds all a bit mysterious to me and it certainly makes one wonder why Gutenberg bothered!!

However if you ever do get round to learning from other folks experience and not just doing it the hard way, try reading page 157 of BTB2. Only one page, but one that indicates that the 6 step drill is an auto corrective drill in which increasing take off efficiency is reflected in increased grip height or vice versa. I know you are an impoverished student but you surely can borrow a book to look at one page. However remember that you are trying to achieve two things with tis drill - in the sand pit or into the box.

And folks please dont take my name in vain - I didnt start this debate and dont want to be part of it - it is such a basic issue it does not need the angst it has already created.

Incidentally Becca there is a film somewhere of Petrov teaching youngsters using this drill although all I have is the film taken in Formia in 06.

[kcvault]

I do not understand the top down approach? I do not understand why you would not build a fodation first? To me it seems gripping high is like putting the roof on first and then the walls and then the fondation. However It does seem that is what B2B meant for this drill. Altius (sorry to use your name) said it is a self correcting drill and that having a higher grip is a result of doing things correctly. I agree with him just not on how to get there. Maby we should have to seperate drills one were the goal is how high you can grip, and one with a lower grip where the empasize is on perfection. Kinda like what you guys were saying about using this drill as a test but take it to an exstreme were you do solely this drill one day and the drill that empasizes tecknique with a gradual raising of the grip as tecknique improves on a different day. I think most of us inluding me think that it is better to develop a fondation first and, and develop a high grip as a result of the gains in tecknique. However from what Altius says beginning to bubka would have you take a top down approach, so in that aspect pp is correct. I can not come up with a solution other then aruing this point with Altius who has made clear he does not want to be part of this discussion, so I soppose the best we can hope for is a comprimise and make them two seperate drills.

---Kasey

[rainbowgirl28]

There are a lot of things that many coaches in the US do wrong, but I don't think undergripping on sand vault drills is what holds back US vaulters.

I don't see harm in occasionally doing sand vaults or straight pole vaults into the pit and seeing how high you can grip and still get in the pit. It is useful as both a measurement tool to track improvement, and it has some value as a self-correcting drill as Alan described.

But I think using it as the only tool in your arsenal, especially for a beginner who is doing it with poor form, ultimately holds the athlete back. I don't see PP self-correcting in his videos, I see him reinforcing bad habits. The coaches I know who use this drill don't do it every practice, they use it as one of many tools in the arsenal.

[VaultPurple]

Self correcting drills are supposed to self correct you. Meaning you need to know what it is supposed to look like when done correctly. So if you are not experienced enough to know what a good jump feels like, then you can not figure out what to fix while you are doing the drill.

We will go back to the original jagodin pp did. Here is how you auto correct it. Keep your chest forward and into the pole and your body vertical with your arms high over your head and your trail leg back, if you keep your chest stretched and your core strong your hips wont go forward and you will push the pole even deeper.

[powerplant42]

Altius, I'll stop quoting you and invoking your name. I didn't want you to have to get involved... Sorry!

Let's all please calm down too... I said in the very first post of this thread that I didn't want this discussion to turn into an online shouting match.

I'll repeat this again:

If you're gripping at ASOP (almost-stalling-out-point) and the pole begins to rotate more quickly, ASOP has moved up. This means that one of two things has just happened:

1. Your strength/speed improved (or you switched the pole)
2. Your technique improved

#1 is not likely to happen (although you could probably say aggression/vigor is something that could increase from psychological factors). #2 IS.

So, if you're right up at ASOP, you should focus on trying to push the grip even higher. If you move it up, you know that you've done #1 or #2. It's simple.

What's seems to be so contentious is WHEN to begin gripping at ASOP and HOW LONG to grip there during a given session. I do NOT believe that ASOP jagodins should only be thought of as a test for intermediate - advanced vaulters!

Let's think about this... We can use me as an example.

Many people are looking at my vid and pointing out this and that mistake, and I agree that I've got plenty of work to do on it. 6P actually called me out on a flaw nobody else really saw (sort of leaning back at take-off), and I totally agreed with him! (That is, I'm not saying that I'm doing the drill "correctly" or "perfectly" etc.)

But am I making different mistakes when my grip changes? No. So the mistakes are NOT contingent upon any particular grip height, they are contingent upon doing the drill. What does that mean? It means that if I'm gripping at ASOP I can work on two things: fixing these mistakes that I'm making (coaching) AND improving other aspects subconsciously (auto-corrective).

But let's say that I do the drill great when I grip low, but I can't do it nearly as well when I move up towards ASOP... What should the grip be? ASOP. Here's why:

SAID. Specific adaptations to imposed demands. This gets back to the idea of a drill's transferrable elements.

If I'm gripping 10' from 3 steps for a sand jagodin, how much resistance do I get from the pole? How difficult is it to move the pole? Certainly not as much or as difficult as if I were to grip 12' (let's say this is ASOP). What would I grip in an actual vault from 3 steps with a flexible pole? I would grip somewhere where the resistance is very close to that of ASOP in the sand. Now tell me, if I only seriously train a take-off with resistance that is less than that of an actual vault's, what exactly is getting transferred from the jagodin? Sure, there's a little bit of transfer, but not as much as if you were to have been gripping nearer ASOP for the jagodin.

I guess I should also address the issue of reinforcing bad habits with poor form when gripping high:

The coach must spot these with the athlete and COACH! "Get the hands up earlier!" "Take-off leg straighter!" "Pre-jump!" However, moving the grip height down does not do any good for this, except perhaps with TOTAL beginners... We're talking first DAY or two, not first YEAR or two. This is because they have absolutely no notion of how to go about performing the drill. Once they've got the feeling of taking off with high hands and staying behind the pole locked in, it's time to move 'em on up to ASOP. (Again, you shouldn't start out at ASOP during a session, but work up to it progressively over the course of a couple of jumps, just to make sure that YOU know what feeling your aiming for.) You might want to repeat the low-grip process when teaching someone the pre-jump, because that introduces another new feeling.

But VP makes an interesting point about me (our example) not knowing what a correct this and that feels like... He says that "if you are not experienced enough to know what a good jump feels like, then you can not figure out what to fix while you are doing the drill."

But that doesn't seem to make sense to me... If I'm learning how to plant, should I not do plant drills to learn how to plant? I don't know what a good plant feels like, so that means I can't fix the mistakes that I'm making with plant drills. It seems I'm doomed! By this, you would never be able to learn anything with a drill.

Maybe he just meant "while you are doing the drill *with a high grip*." That would make more sense, but it does not resolve itself with SAID. Sure, I'd be able to learn how to do the drill more "correctly" if I were to grip down, but it would also require less effort to perform the drill "correctly" when gripping low. So now you might be able to perform this drill "correctly" with low resistance. Good! But does that mean you can do the drill with more resistance? With ASOP resistance (which is close to the resistance experienced in an actual vault)? Not necessarily, no. So why would you not work on your mistakes AT ASOP? You get a few benefits:

1. You know immediately if you've improved your technique because the pole moves markedly quicker. (This might also produce a positive psychological boost!)
2. You are training the vertical impulse at take-off that is likely to get lost when doing the drill with a low grip.
3. You know how efficient your take-off is.
4. There is more likely to be more effort put into fixing mistakes due to the psychology of competition... That is, if you're a competetive person (or even if you aren't) you'll be focused on MOVING that pole REALLY FAST! That way you can grip up and keep competing with yourself, or even against others (tried that one with a couple of athletes the other day, and it worked out great!).

Self correcting drills are supposed to self correct you. Meaning you need to know what it is supposed to look like when done correctly.

This is incorrect. An auto-corrective drill means just the opposite of what you've described! It means that you naturally, subconsciously get better just by looking at the output you get from the drill (in this case, grip height/pole speed). Try reading about agapit's pole climbing drill in the back of BTB2. This should help you better understand the concept of an auto-corrective excercise.

[IAmTheWalrus]

Sure, the drill can be auto corrective, but so it touching a hot stove. Personally I'd rather just have someone tell me its hot.

I don't know if anyone plays a musical instrument (guitar for me), but if you want to play a song, you can try to play it full speed from the start, and fumble through it, and you'll eventually learn it, but it will take a while, because you are practicing the wrong notes half the time. The recommended approach is to learn to play the song perfectly, but slowly. After you can play it perfectly, increase the speed. I believe the same applies here. For your current situation, getting used to the correct method, the correct takeoff, will help greatly. Then you can rapidly increase grip height. The body just learns better that way. Let your feet, hands, chest , and legs know where to go first, then as you work harder at takeoff (such as when you raise your grip) your form will diminish less. Eventually you will get to a point where a small increase in grip height causes some you to do things wrong. This is where you need to put in some solid work again. Practice at the comfortable grip height a bit (a warm up more or less) then raise your grip until technique waivers a bit, and focus on correcting that technique. Don't raise your grip more until you've "conquered" this grip height though. If your takeoff suffers with a 11' grip don't go to an 11'6" a expect that to fix your problems.

You are in a situation, much like I have been before, that results from a lack of a coach on hand. What happened is that you may be athletic enough for a certain grip, but you cannot execute proper technique with such a grip. I experienced this a lot when trying to push my takeoff back in college. I could hold on big poles, but when I did I had to reach inside to 11' or closer. I wasn't going to change that on a 16' 180, I had to move down to 13' or 13'6 poles and work on that until I could be just as aggressive with a better takeoff as I was when I was inside. Now I'm no extraordinary vaulter either, and I am not finished fixing my takeoff, but the fact that it has improved is undeniable ( I once took off at 9' gripping 14'7").

Well that's all I have to say, fantasy football is calling. Good luck with everything, and be careful you don't burn all your bridges or you'll end up alone on an island.

[kcvault]

Sure, the drill can be auto corrective, but so it touching a hot stove. Personally I'd rather just have someone tell me its hot.

I don't know if anyone plays a musical instrument (guitar for me), but if you want to play a song, you can try to play it full speed from the start, and fumble through it, and you'll eventually learn it, but it will take a while, because you are practicing the wrong notes half the time. The recommended approach is to learn to play the song perfectly, but slowly. After you can play it perfectly, increase the speed. I believe the same applies here. For your current situation, getting used to the correct method, the correct takeoff, will help greatly. Then you can rapidly increase grip height. The body just learns better that way. Let your feet, hands, chest , and legs know where to go first, then as you work harder at takeoff (such as when you raise your grip) your form will diminish less. Eventually you will get to a point where a small increase in grip height causes some you to do things wrong. This is where you need to put in some solid work again. Practice at the comfortable grip height a bit (a warm up more or less) then raise your grip until technique waivers a bit, and focus on correcting that technique. Don't raise your grip more until you've "conquered" this grip height though. If your takeoff suffers with a 11' grip don't go to an 11'6" a expect that to fix your problems.

[powerplant42]

You make a good point Wally with the music analogy, but we just go right back to the issue of "correctness". Take a look at my sprinting analogy.

Well, my entire argument's out there. There's nothing more I've got to add for now.

[IAmTheWalrus]

I think we're closer now to somewhat of a consensus. If I were to look at your sprinting analogy, I would say to do some sprinting at 50%, then try 60 or 65% we'll say. Yes, you NEED to push yourself into the "uncomfortable" range, or that area where technique begins to fail, but focus on the technique. Its not worth too much to sprint all out, in November, when you look like s***, but you don't want to jog "perfectly" either. You need to push yourself INCREMENTALLY, but DO push yourself. In competition you don't want to stay on your warm up pole, but you don't want to jump immediately to your "HUGE" pole either. The same with stiff pole drills. Start low, work your way up the pole, just don't jump the gun. Make sure you get quality jumps in there before you move to high, and if you feel things start to become poor, go back down a step, do some good ones, then back up.

Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

[powerplant42]

Yes, we are much closer now.