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Not going lower than parallel is an old rule of thought that has little proof. In all honesty, mecahnically, you knee is at the worst stress when it is at 90 degrees, as the moment arm on the femur is the longest.

Anything deeper than that and the moment arm (perpendicular distance between the center of mass and the axis of rotation) starts to decrease. ...and in addition, you knee is supposed to bend that way, as long as you do it with the correct posture, you're plenty safe.

As for "don't let your knees go in front of your toes" ... I don't like that either. What good does it do to displace your hips that far behind you and put all of the mass you are trying to lift away from your own connection of force to the groun (i.e. your feet)????


In relating to another post, squatting in a smith machine does nothing for your neural control of your lower body. With the exception of rehabilitating a stroke victim who may be experiencing hemiplegia (paralysis of only one side of the body), why not teach someone how to balance?

The take home message, we should not be curtailing a workout away from the full range of motion, this causes us to get away from working the joint the real way it's supposed to work.

Hopefully someone agrees with me on this one...

I completely agree with you, what is the deal with all this Squat bashing? There is no better exercise, especially if you work it through the full range of motion. I haven't heard much about the neural control when doing the smith squat, I assume you mean that it is not as beneficial for the training of the CNS. It does have its perks though, since you are able to place your feet slightly ahead of the weight and have better posture, the smith machine is very good at isolating the knee extensors (All 4 quadriceps muscles). However that does mean the hip extensors don't get much work. I think varying your workouts by including both the squat, smith squat, and maybe the front squat as well is great for building power in the legs.

souleman wrote:Becca, I said "barely" touch the bench and even as old as I am, 90 pounds ain't gonna squash me. The legs never reach 90 degrees or more which protects the knees. The whole idea behind any of what I do is lighter weights and more reps. Reason being, (take my bench squats for example) my bones, tendons and joints never "see" more than 90 pounds which is around 50% to 55% of my one time max. The secret comes from doing 10, then resting at least 2 minutes, then 8 and resting 2 minutes and then 6. The cumulative effect in doing lifting this way is that the muscles "see" 2160 pounds through the exercise while the parts that can get hurt by big weights only "see" 90. The reason for the break in between reps is that the body (especially in, and required for, seniors) can recoup 95% of the energy expended in those 2 minutes of rest. Younger folks can take shorter rests between sets. The rest is what allows the lifter the energy to get through the next set. It's when you're dragging and tired that you get hurt lifting. So, if you ask my bones and joints and tendons how much I can bench squat, they will tell you 90 lbs. Ask my muscles, they will tell you a ton! Later...Mike

I don't disagree with you, but it is risky advice to give to others, as plenty of high schoolers on here are liable to put on 200lbs or more and hurt themselves.

If you can barely touch the bench, you ought to be able to do it barely touching a bungee or jump rope.

Becca is right, and it isn't just high school. I see the majority (at least 90%) of kids in college do way too much weight and sacrifice form just because they want to look big, but they really just look stupid.

Here's my take; If you want to learn to squat well, start by learning the Front Squat - preferably with a Power Clean grip, not the ridiculous arm folded / bar over the delts grip.

It's hard to do a Front Squat wrong. The nature of it keeps your back straight and torso upright. With that taken care of, the athlete only needs to focus on sitting back. This keeps the feet over the knees and the weight on the primary movers - the Glutes and Hams. These are the muscles you really want to train. Not the quads.

After getting pretty good at the FS start working on the Overhead Squat. When both these squats are mastered, learning the Back Squat with exceptional form should be quite easy.

Full Squats are great for training the range of motion, however, Parallel Squats are better for building strength. You can use much more weight and that will stimulate a stronger adaptive response than the full range with lighter weight. Along that line of thought, I like Quarter Squats on the Smith Rack using obscene weight. I only advocate the Quarters when peaking during a strength stage of a training cycle. That would be about 4-6 sessions in an entire year. It would also be with a advanced athlete. I would never use the Smith for Full or Parallel Squats.

Another squat I do like the Smith for is the Split Squat. You can't move big weight doing Split Squats with a free bar. On the Smith you don't have to worry about all the balancing and stabilizing, you can just focus on moving weight. I highly recommend trying it to anyone who hasn't already. It really hits the Glutes.

Regarding the Bench/Box Squats. They are all the rage with the elite powerlifters right now. The way they do them is to sit all the way down on the box to release the tension from the glutes. They then fire the glutes hard from a relaxed state to squat up. Certainly an advanced technique, not for high schoolers or anyone without an expericed coach. This technique, arguably, does have athletic carry-over.

jumpbackin wrote:Here's my take; If you want to learn to squat well, start by learning the Front Squat - preferably with a Power Clean grip, not the ridiculous arm folded / bar over the delts grip.

I had to use that grip because the power clean grip hurt my wrists too much.

rainbowgirl28 wrote:

jumpbackin wrote:Here's my take; If you want to learn to squat well, start by learning the Front Squat - preferably with a Power Clean grip, not the ridiculous arm folded / bar over the delts grip.

I had to use that grip because the power clean grip hurt my wrists too much.

Can y'all clarify the descriptions of both of those style grips?

rainbowgirl28 wrote:

jumpbackin wrote:Here's my take; If you want to learn to squat well, start by learning the Front Squat - preferably with a Power Clean grip, not the ridiculous arm folded / bar over the delts grip.

I had to use that grip because the power clean grip hurt my wrists too much.

At 41 I can't use the Catch Grip either. I'll do my best to describe what I do now. I take Wrist Straps, the kind typically used for lifting heavy bars and Dumbells, and instead of looping them around my wrist, I loop them around the bar, each one just slightly outside of shoulder placement. This way there is one strap attached to the bar just outside the right Delt placement and one just outside the left Delt. The loose ends of the straps are pointing up. When I squat, I hold onto the loose ends of the straps about 2-3 inches from the bar and have the bar resting normally across my Delts. It's a really nice grip for Front Squats

lonestar wrote:

rainbowgirl28 wrote:

jumpbackin wrote:Here's my take; If you want to learn to squat well, start by learning the Front Squat - preferably with a Power Clean grip, not the ridiculous arm folded / bar over the delts grip.

I had to use that grip because the power clean grip hurt my wrists too much.

Can y'all clarify the descriptions of both of those style grips?

I'll try. The catch grip is just like how one woud catch the bar when doing cleans. Bar is on the upper chest and Delts, wrist are bent back and just the fingers are on the bar. Some people have the bar so far out on their fingers that their Pinkys are off completely, and that's ok.

The other grip, your arms are folded in front of you but up, like Barbara Eden on I Dream of Jeannie (my appologies to everyone under 30). This forms kind of a flat surface for the bar to rest at the top of your chest and shoulders. I don't like this one because there is less control, takes more shoulder effort and tends to be choking. I've heard of guys passing out during a squat from the choking.

jumpbackin wrote:

lonestar wrote:

rainbowgirl28 wrote:

jumpbackin wrote:Here's my take; If you want to learn to squat well, start by learning the Front Squat - preferably with a Power Clean grip, not the ridiculous arm folded / bar over the delts grip.

I had to use that grip because the power clean grip hurt my wrists too much.

Can y'all clarify the descriptions of both of those style grips?

I'll try. The catch grip is just like how one woud catch the bar when doing cleans. Bar is on the upper chest and Delts, wrist are bent back and just the fingers are on the bar. Some people have the bar so far out on their fingers that their Pinkys are off completely, and that's ok.

The other grip, your arms are folded in front of you but up, like Barbara Eden on I Dream of Jeannie (my appologies to everyone under 30). This forms kind of a flat surface for the bar to rest at the top of your chest and shoulders. I don't like this one because there is less control, takes more shoulder effort and tends to be choking. I've heard of guys passing out during a squat from the choking.

Ok, I understand both grips and have used both. I don't do front squats but am going to start soon - I have done them in the past with both grips you described and also have wrist pain with the power clean grip, and felt awkward with the arms-crossed grip. I like the strap grip you describe.

Thanks.

vault3rb0y wrote:Lax PV... i understand that at 90 degrees your knees are at maximum pressure, and going farther than that will hurt them less. But what about coming back up?? If your knees are bent more than parellel, picture this in your mind, it is up to all the muscles in your knee to get the weight at least to 90 degrees, where more your quads and hamstrings come in. Its ok to strengthen your knee muscles and tendons like that, but dont do it with high weight or you will blow something.

Primary extensor or the knee is your rectus femoris... the bulk of your quad and the biggest muscle in your body. Sorry to say, but that works at all angles...not a huge argument...

vault3rb0y wrote:Lax PV... i understand that at 90 degrees your knees are at maximum pressure, and going farther than that will hurt them less. But what about coming back up?? If your knees are bent more than parellel, picture this in your mind, it is up to all the muscles in your knee to get the weight at least to 90 degrees, where more your quads and hamstrings come in. Its ok to strengthen your knee muscles and tendons like that, but dont do it with high weight or you will blow something.

Wrong!!!!!

First off you have to look at the way your squatting. Perform what we call a Frog Squat. Basically sit your butt down as far as you can.

Notice is your balance stable. Are your heels still on the ground. Did you knees move out slightly. Are your toes slightly ducked out. If yes you will have very little pressure on your knees unless flexibility in your knees, ankles and calfs are an issue.

Next from this position stand back up with your hands feeling your quad. Now you tell me your quad is not firing. YES IT IS.

On a second note Squatting properly no matter the degree at which you squat does not put extreme tension on your knee. If you think that is does never stand up from a seated position. Never walk up stairs. Do not go for a run or do any physical activity at all.

All these provide more pressure on your knees than correct squatting. With your heels on the ground, foot slightly ducked out and knees allowed to open up you should feel very little pressure on the knees unless you have arthritus or something special to your situation.

The reason squatting has a bad rap is two areas is firstly when an athlete lets his heels come off the ground this is when you feel a lot of pressure on the knees. Hence baseball/softball catchers with knee injuries. Look at the way most of them sit in their position. This is why they came out with the knee savers they suppose to help keep the catchers heels on the ground. The second is when a young athlete is taught don't let the knees go over the toes and they lack flexibility. The constantly here lower the weight lower the weight. the only way this is possible is to bend at the waist. Lower back pain waiting to happen.

Honestly keeping low weight and doing squatting motions over and over will only increase the size of your legs. Not give you more strength you might as well stop wasting your time squatting and do other activites.

learn how to do powercleans and do them