4 step mid?

[rainbowgirl28]

Maybe it would be help if you guys posted a link to the thread you are referring to.

[Capt Caveman]

http://www.athleticscoaching.ca/UserFiles/File/Sport%20Science/Theory%20&%20Methodology/Speed/Sprints/Levtshenko%20Some%20Q%20and%20A%20on%20Womens%20sprinting.pdf

http://www2.iaaf.org/TheSport/sport/100/Expert.htm

http://sports.dmc.org/upload/docs/sportexperts/Speed%20For%20Sprinting34.pdf

I am having difficulty picturing how athletes of varying heights can be expected to have the same stride length. I posted links to 3 pretty good articles about sprinting (after all pole vaulting is sprinting) and none of them mention a requirement of a longer stride length fo be faster. In fact the third one suggests the exact opposite warning against "over striding" multiple times.

HELP.

[master]

In fact the third one suggests the exact opposite warning against "over striding" multiple times.

Be careful not to confuse a long sprinting stride with over striding. A long stride is good and comes from working hard on developing proper sprinting technique. Over striding is bad and comes from reaching out and having your feet hit the ground in front of your body. Terminology gets us all into a lot of trouble until we are all on the same definition page

- master

[Capt Caveman]

In fact the third one suggests the exact opposite warning against "over striding" multiple times.

Be careful not to confuse a long sprinting stride with over striding. A long stride is good and comes from working hard on developing proper sprinting technique. Over striding is bad and comes from reaching out and having your feet hit the ground in front of your body. Terminology gets us all into a lot of trouble until we are all on the same definition page

- master

That is exactly what I am confused about. I understand the concepts of stride length and stride frequency. I can also see how overstriding can cause you to be slower. What I dont understand is if you apply that chart to 2 athletes of varying heights that have achieved the same success (in height and speed) how one of them would not be chopping (if they were tall) their step as compared to the shorter athlete OR how the shorter athlete would not be overstriding as compared to the taller one. Even if they both had perfect running mechanics their legs are not the same length so one of them would have to be doing something wrong in their run.

I think back to the 100 world record. Bolt ran fewer steps to cover the 100 than any of his copetitiors. How come all of the 100 guys are not just trying to lengthen their strides to match the # of steps bolt took? Or is it that since he is so tall his max stride length (without overstriding) is longer than everyone elses? If that is the explanation for the differances in sprinters (no worry of carrying a pole) can anyone explain why it would be so much different when you put a pole in a sprinters hands?

Second question, is that a mens/boys chart and there is a different one for women/girls? Or is is unisex?

[master]

Capt:
1) The question about whether there should or should not be adjustment for height (with respect to stride length) has been discussed in detail.
2) Height does play into the take off point listed on the chart and dj acknowledged that to me in this topic http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4643
My interaction is mainly on the first page of this long (23 page) topic. If you want to know what people on this board think about the chart, this is a must read. I believe dj told me his chart assumes a 6'1" vaulter, and the takeoff is computed assuming an 8' reach (top hand straight up gripping the pole).
3) To a certain point (especially true for young/new athletes) you can increase your stride length by increasing leg strength and quickness (reducing foot on ground contact time).
4) I am a strong believer in using a mid/coaches mark (whether or not it corresponds with the values on the chart) because it helps identify which portion of the run is likely the cause of any problem with steps. Many young athletes think they are running consistently but using a mid will help tell the truth. I assume you know the athlete should not look at the mark during their approach run.

- master

[Capt Caveman]

Capt:
1) The question about whether there should or should not be adjustment for height (with respect to stride length) has been discussed in detail.
2) Height does play into the take off point listed on the chart and dj acknowledged that to me in this topic http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4643
My interaction is mainly on the first page of this long (23 page) topic. If you want to know what people on this board think about the chart, this is a must read. I believe dj told me his chart assumes a 6'1" vaulter, and the takeoff is computed assuming an 8' reach (top hand straight up gripping the pole).
3) To a certain point (especially true for young/new athletes) you can increase your stride length by increasing leg strength and quickness (reducing foot on ground contact time).
4) I am a strong believer in using a mid/coaches mark (whether or not it corresponds with the values on the chart) because it helps identify which portion of the run is likely the cause of any problem with steps. Many young athletes think they are running consistently but using a mid will help tell the truth. I assume you know the athlete should not look at the mark during their approach run.

- master

That answers the majority of my questions about that chart. It is based off of a certain size vaulter (and a certain reach - I had not even considered that aspect of it). It is not a one size fits all. I bought into the mid mark idea pretty quickly and have begun looking at tape from last season to see if I can establish a base for this winters training. I will have to go through the posts from the link you provided but it looks like that will take some time.....LONG. Maybe some of my other questions can be answered in there (where is the best point for particular length runs, how does your mid move a foot if your take off only moved 3 inches etc). Yes I assumed it was not a mark that the athlete looked down at during the run.

Thanks

[altius]

1, Over striding is bad and comes from -------------- having your feet hit the ground in front of your body???????????????? Sorry Doc. Take a look at Figure 24. 7 and re read the info in that area. The critical issue is HOW the foot strikes the ground! However I do understand that running in front of yourself may become difficult when you get old!!!!!

2. A pure check mark can be almost anywhere around the middle of the run up. The advantage of a 6 step mark is that it ties in with the whole package of the pole lowering/planting action and an effort to increase speed at that point by increasing cadence - not stride length. Understanding the link can lead the athlete to more efficient integration of the drills involved in developing both elements of technique - into that technique.

[baggettpv]

I use the 6 step mark for the same reasons Alan presents. The proper timing of the pole drop, final acceleration and that look in the eyes of an aggressive takeoff.

Rick Baggett
WSTC

[dj]

Pvp4 step…

I’m not sure how deep I can get into this discussion at this point, even though there are some very import speed, posture and natural acceleration issues that continue to be over looked and/or miss understood.

Read the post on MID MARK.. the only problem with that in itself is there is some miss information and/or things continueto be miss understood in that thread that has never been cleared up.. so it might be more confusing.

First on 4 compared to 6… not even close in what it can do for your run. Why..

I think we all agree or should agree that the run and speed all starts with the first step. To be “correct” on any “check” mark, we should not call it a MID.. my mark and chart is a 6 step (coaches) mark chart.. period…

First point is, the farther away from the take off that you can have a “reliable” check point the better. I consider a “reliable” distance to be far enough away from the start into the acceleration that the stride lengths are changing very, very little.. 1 or 2 inches…. When can the 747 “rise up” and get ready for lift off.

Point two; this point needs to be far enough away from the take off to start “shifting’ the hips into the takeoff mode and off course drop the pole in rhythm. “shifting the hips” has been studied and documented (that I personally know of back into the 60’s with studies of long jumpers) to the point that it should be easy to understand. In layman’s terms the hips have to be “shifted” so they align in a curtain way with the spine and the correct running action of the legs. This is what I have sometimes termed “piston” action in some of my post.

Petrov has emphasized this action with first, posture and then with increased stride frequency into take off over the last 6 strides.

What increased frequency does is cuts down the “ground time’ of each stride and positions the legs (and hips) under the body the way they need to be.

THIS IS WHAT MY CHART DOES IF FOLLOWED>>>>

My chart gives the jumper the exact (within an inch or two) stride length and frequency to match with the speed needed to move the matching grip and to have the correct “hip shift, posture, foot placement.. etc..etc..

The chart is “fool” proof. What I mean by that is this… if you run the lengths and frequency related to grip, the speed is needed to move that corresponding grip you will run correctly and shift the hips correctly.

If you are running faster, correctly, you will need a 6 stride mark farther out and if you plant and takeoff correctly and don’t raise your grip you will blow through.

If you are running faster with correct technique and a 6 stride mark “to close” you will have to “chop” (or run “under” and get yanked) lose posture and speed.

If you are running slower for the 6 step you are using you will stretch (have longer ground time) to try and be on, lower your center of mass, CANNOT shift the hips to the correct takeoff position and if you don’t manage to stretch “under” you will still get “slammed” because the body mass is going down, stressing the pole more and causing a greater loss of speed.

Another big point about stretching is that it not only makes you reach and then have to swing the other leg hard and wait until the mass passes the center of the mass before you push… when you stretch you have to do something with the torso to “balance” so you end up swinging the pole out of the best carry position so you car never adjust back into the correct takeoff “posture’… SLAM and SLAM..

The chart is math and “physics’ based not just a figment of my imagination.

One response to a post is this.. NO.. my chart is not ‘collection” of data from ONE vaulter that has the same physical characteristics through out there vault career, ie leg length.. leg length has nothing to do with stride length or speed when an athlete is….

Running correctly …: applying more force per body mass… horizontally.. why horizontally? Because force created by leg swing and knee drive is only “useable” if it is driving or helping to “push” you in a direct line to your finish line. Once the torso-thigh angle (hip hinge) and the femur-tibia (knee hinge) reach a curtain point on the leading leg (and I don’t have those numbers handy right now) ie knee drive directly up the track.. the remaining knee :lift becomes recovery not force based.

The chart started with a ‘formula” based on a comparison of a couple of 14 foot high school vaulters and a couple of 16 foot college vaulters..

The formula was 4”(9cm) of grip = 12 inches (31cm) of speed (stride length) from 6 steps into takeoff. That means 4” (9cm) of grip needs 2 (5cm) more inches of “speed” for 6 steps to move that grip to vertical.

Then I looked at the increments between 14 and 16 foot vaults and each grip and each 12 inches 31cm) of run represented 6”(15cm) in crossbar height.

My first chart in the early 70’s was from 10 feet to 19 feet.. because girls or 19 feet had not been jumped. It had a colum for Bar height, grip, takeoff, 6 step mark and the time (in feet per second.. we, USA, were not metric yet) to cover the last 6 steps.

Someone has asked how I determine the time.. because I had feet per second on my chart way before Peter McGinnis had the meter per second for the various athletes men and women over the last 10 meters, Bubka included.

For example on my chart I have 9.1 meters per second to jump 19 feet.. now that is an average over the last 6 steps not the last 10 meters or 2 or 4 steps, I do think a vaulter can jump 19 feet running 9.1 MPS..
Let me do the math with you… because you can do this with a 4 step or a 6 step.

On my chart 19 feet (5.75) has these parameters…
a 16.85 (6) six step mark.
4.27 takeoff an (average!!)..
= 12.59m covered in 6 steps…

Divide 12.58 by the 9.1

That means 1.3824 seconds electric time… for the last 6 steps…

Check my math.. that seems slow..

So what I had prior to meeting with Peter many moons ago was the time of 1.38 to jump 19 feet.. we worked backwards and I converted to meters to come up with the 9.1 which matched closely with what he was getting with high speed camera. I think his data showed 9.5 or higher for the last 2 steps.. but if you do 6 steps the average will be lower..

Therefore.. my chart numbers…

You can pull the correct distances for 4 steps from my chart… for example.. 19 feet
You divide 12.58 by 6 = 2.097 per stride.. 4 x 2.097= 8.388 add the takeoff distance.. 4.27 + 8.388 = 12.658 which is 41.53 feet = 41’6 1/3 inches…4 step check mark for a 19 foot (5.75m) a vault…

so what do you need on the last part of the approach into the takeoff?

Posture, pole drop, frequency, speed, hip position for proper takeoff, accuracy.

Can you get as good or the same feedback from 4? My opinion no….

Think about this point.. if you are slightly “in” or “out” at 6 if have 6 steps to “adjust” with a little on each step.. with 4 your “margin of error’ or adjustment is not as good.

Next point.. I know if you run the lengths and frequencies on my chart you will be running correctly… ie. if you are over striding you will be slower and not match the frequency… ie if you are running faster and having to chop you will have to “back off” and not have the correct length or body posture to takeoff correctly.

Another key element to any “check’ point is the correct acceleration to that “check”.

Speed has an “increment” value.. you have to be at a curtain speed on step two to be faster on step 3.. curtain speed at 3 to be faster at 4… on..on..

This is where short run vaulting can get you in a “heap” of trouble… if you don’t use the 6 step chart for your short run (anything from 3 lefts, 6 steps.. yes ever from only 6 steps you should match and follow the chart for grip to “check mark”.

If you are stretching, which most of us do, especially when we are raising out grip and jumping for PR”s…, you will learn to vault with a “stretch” and mass low at takeoff.. which makes you jump on bigger poles.. which “makes” you try and force bend the pole, which makes you delay the swing out of the natural rhythm.. which in the long run may teach you to vault “without” speed and when and if you get speed you will have a very difficult time making things happen because of “feel”. You will have to slow down to vault… bummer.

Later

dj

[Capt Caveman]

I am confused again. Where is the human factor in this? I still have to wonder if this chart works why is there not a similar chart for the sprint events? The long jump? The triple jump? I have not been able to locate any. All of the sources/research have a human factor in the research and allow different athletes to perform at their peak independant of other athletes (the human factor). Is there a full write up on this chart published somewhere? What is the science/research that was used to develop this unique chart? If there is a full write up on this chart I can stop burdening the board with these questions.

I am sorry to be so persistant. I have always been this way. I refuse to blindly follow something just because. I preferr to understand what I am doing and why. Bad coaching is worse than no coaching at all and following things blindly is bad coaching at its finest.

[dj]

good morning

i have the charts for the sprints and the long jump..

i don't have and haven't spent the time to get Usain Bolts step "number".. but you give me the number of steps he ran and the point where he hit, right or left foot, near the 100m finish and i will give you the length of his steps... or more valuable would be where he hit at 40 meters and his number of steps... Greene's world record was 19 steps for 40 meters so Bolt will be 18ish...

we can actually determine his steps by how fast he covered each 10 meters of the race... for example years ago when i did greene to Lewis.. Greene beat Lewis's record by 1/2 inch per step.. can't remember of hand.. they each took 43 or 45 steps.... if it was 45 steps that would mean Greene beat the record by 22.5 inches.. so if they ran the same time in the same race greene would reach the finish 22.5 inches ahead of Lewis..

upps ; )

dj

ps.. a 28 foot (8.45m) long jumper needs a 48' (14.55m) six stride check mark....

[souleman]

Captain, We are at a point here that between this thread and http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=4643 we have brought you to the water. We can't make you drink unless you want to drink. I'm not near smart enough to fully understand all the math and physics of the chart but I use it anyway. To much success I might add. Both for myself and the vaulters I coach. That's the beauty of the darn thing. If the run is "on" the jump has a chance. Trouble is, the run up has to be "on" or nothing happens right. By following the chart and striving to get as close to the marks as possible, the jump at least has a chance of being as good as it can be. DJ spent many years doing the research on it so we don't have to. We just follow the darn thing. Believe in it, use it and watch your vaulters soar! Later...................Mike