bottom arm

[pvjackex]

tell me if i have this correct.

i press up with the bottom arm at the plant.

keep it straight for awhile until i get inverted.

if i have it wrong, which i think i do, can someone correct it please. thx

[Kirk]

When you plant, reach forward/up with both arms, so they're both as extended as possible. But let your top arm take your entire weight, using your bottom arm only for balance. Don't try to resist with the bottom arm, or you'll kill your rockback and your forwards momentum into the pit. Then (assuming your takeoff speed is OK; your grip is at the right height; and your pole weight matches your speed/weight/grip/technique) the pole will bend naturally, and the natural pendulum action from your top hand down to your takeoff leg will be all that's needed to bend the pole. Pressing with the bottom hand on or after takeoff dampens this natural pendulum motion, and kills your forwards momentum into the pit.

Kirk Bryde

[advath]

and the natural pendulum action from your top hand down to your takeoff leg will be all that's needed to bend the pole.

Actually the "natural pendulum action from your top hand down" should be controlled. Vitally Petrov explained a drill of running up to a rope, jumping up, grabbing the rope, swinging forward riding the rope forward and up, and letting go while staying in a vertical position (not letting the hips swing forward) and landing well out in front of the rope in the standing position.

The natural pendulum action acted upon the vaulter coming off the ground would put the vaulter on his/her back too soon and/or direct forces down toward the box. By controlling the hips and keeping the torso in the vertical position coming off the ground will help direct the top of the pole over the box. The hips will begin to swing up on their own when controlling them off the ground. Then the trail leg should swing down and out toward the box. This creates an extended body from the top hand; through the shoulders, hips and straight trail leg. From here the swing continues up toward the top hand. There should be a definite transition of swinging down and lifting up in the swing. It all starts with controlling the natural pendulum action of the hips coming off the ground.

You should be able to feel the forces being first applied to the top hand, then the shoulders, then the hips and finally the trail foot. You should not feel forces applied to the top hand then the entire body being forced to swing at once.

For a more complete description of the take off see:
http://www.advantageathletics.com/polev ... e-off.html

Another page related to this subject is:
http://www.advantageathletics.com/polevault/molnar.html

This past weekend at Skyjumpers Camp Jan Johnson demonstrated the swing on a swinging trapeze. His demonstration of riding the swinging trapeze forward and using the swing of the trail leg to get inverted was a great exercise that they use at his camp all the time. I showed Jan the Vitally Petrov version of this same drill. When the body passes the lowest point and the trapeze starts to swing up and forward, the vaulter can and should control the natural pendulum action of the hips by focusing on driving the shoulders and holding the hips back. You should feel the shoulders rise while the hips are still under the shoulders. As the bar rises more, the hips will be forced to swing up...nol out. This is the cue to start the trail leg swing. Try this. You'll feel a greater whipping action of the trail leg. Jan said it was a great way to do the drill.

Thanks Jan. Camp was a blast as usual.

[KYLE ELLIS]

When you plant, reach forward/up with both arms, so they're both as extended as possible. But let your top arm take your entire weight, using your bottom arm only for balance. Don't try to resist with the bottom arm, or you'll kill your rockback and your forwards momentum into the pit. Then (assuming your takeoff speed is OK; your grip is at the right height; and your pole weight matches your speed/weight/grip/technique) the pole will bend naturally, and the natural pendulum action from your top hand down to your takeoff leg will be all that's needed to bend the pole. Pressing with the bottom hand on or after takeoff dampens this natural pendulum motion, and kills your forwards momentum into the pit.

actually u can use the left to put more bend and it helps help stay back. By drive phase my left arm is by my left ear and my left hand is higher than my right.

Kirk Bryde

[Kirk]

Advath, we agree. I just gave the Reader's Digest version, as that's how the question was posed. I think that when an answer to a simple question from a (presumably) novice vaulter is too detailed, the main points sometimes lose their impact. Thanks for elaborating.

actually u can use the left to put more bend and it helps help stay back. By drive phase my left arm is by my left ear and my left hand is higher than my right.

Huh? If your left hand (lower hand) is higher than your right, you're overbending! I'm guessing that you're a "pole-rider" rather than a "pole-vaulter", if you get my drift. Many vaulters in the 13-15 foot range (including myself in high-school) purposely "ride" the pole this way, but you'll hit a ceiling height that you'll never break until you change your technique.

Kyle, let me make this suggestion:
Instead of thinking about using your lower arm to "put more bend" in your pole and to "help stay back", think about pushing your chest forward so that you're stretched in an exaggerated arch that can be drawn between your top hand, chest, and trail leg foot. I realize that this might sound counter-intuitive, so verify this with any 16+ vaulters.

From this "arched" position, it's much easier to get lots of bend, and to execute a controlled swing into a rockback, (just as Advath described). There's lots of variations in "good" pole vaulting technique, but you won't find any GOOD 16+ vaulters who actually press their bottom hand to bend the pole.

I did notice a post by Stacey D., where she said that she presses with her bottom hand, but she's not a 16+ vaulter!

Kirk Bryde

[KYLE ELLIS]

Well i am a 16 foot + vaulter jumped 16-6 the other night from 12 gripping 13-10 on a 15 192 essx. I have to disagree with u. There is no set certain way for correct in pole vault, there are many styles and techniques. The one im using is the drive-vault (since im retardedly slow i hit the plant and drive the piss out of the pole and stay behind it forever) this gives me a the fast swing i need to jump on big enough poles for high heights. And i have seen tons of 19 + jumpers where in their drive phase their left is higher than their right! One of those is Bubka, Hysong etc., Yeah there are people like Dragila and Olson or who dont even use their left, but I have to. I dont know what a pole rider is? Coach McMicheals said I look like him at the plant thats all I need to know.

[Kirk]

Yeah there are people like Dragila and Olson or who dont even use their left ...

Actually, I was referring to Dragilia's own post, where she says that she DOES press with her bottom arm:

http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20030228003/tscript.htm Hollywood, Florida: Did you learn to not push with the bottom arm? Why do you take off underneath? Was this natural for you?

Stacy Dragila: When I first started pole vaulting, my coach actually said that I was doing things pretty correct. But when I broke two poles, I went into a protect mode, and it's been tough getting out of it. But this year, I've been concentrating on pushing with the bottom arm, so hopefully you'll see it on TV this weekend. I've been getting more comfortable with it, bringing my step back out and just trusting the whole jump.

I'm advocating NOT pressing with your lower arm, despite Stacy's comments to the contrary.

Kyle, congrats on your 16-6! Your grip is surprisingly low, so I recant calling you a "pole-rider", as that's a term for someone that just bends the pole, then rides the recoil over the bar, and the hell with proper technique. So I certainly apologize for assuming that you hadn't yet hit 16'. You sure can't grip at 13-10 and clear 16-6 by riding the pole! That's a 3'-4" handstand! That's incredible! And who am I to criticize your technique, since I've never seen you in action?

However, my advice still stands. I too was a "retardedly slow" vaulter, and I had to resort to "good technique" to get me over the bar. I too drove hard into the plant, and stayed behind the pole "forever". Maybe we have similar styles, except for this one issue. I encourage you to talk to other vaulters about this (especially those that have seen you vault), and I encourage you to make up your own mind about it, based on hearing all other opinions.

The issue is whether you drive forward/up with your lower arm, or with your chest. In my experience, there's no question that focussing on driving your chest forwards to create an arch between your upper hand and trail leg is what will give you the big bend and powerful swing before rocking back.

How tall are you, what's your weight and 100m speed, and why is your grip so low? Have you thought about raising your grip? If your answer is that you'd stall out or slow your swing down too much with a higher grip, I think you'll find that your forwards momentum will be just fine by driving your chest thru (collapsing your lower arm).

Kirk Bryde

[advath]

Check out the picture of Tom Parker on the top of http://www.advantageathletics.com/polevault.html
He had a huge locked out bottom arm but let his shoulders drive under it. He vaulted 17' 3" in high school. He even went to an Invitational in high school and opened at 17' and made it on his first attempt. The problem was that he would stall out over 17' 6" and 18'. He was able to get his body over those bars too.

Vitally Petrov said that pressing up too much with the bottom arm or trying to get the top of the pole parallel to the ground early does cause the vaulter to stall out over higher bars.

Rodion Gataullin sent me an e-mail one time after reading an early version of Advantage Athletics. He said he liked the site even though he didn't vault the way I teach it. He did go on to say that there are so many different ways to pole vault and be successful.

For myself...I've been very successful following Vitally Petrov's coaching technique.

[KYLE ELLIS]

ok i think i know what ur talkin about now. to be honest i dont think about my left arm anymore( i havent in like 6 to 7 years) This summer we have worked on getting the trail leg back futher and one big difference is that u do have to drive ur chest to get that trail leg back there. When my trail leg was short so was my chest arch. But at 10 years old i learned to lock my left arm and i dont know if thats right or wrong but its gradually evolved into the right way over the years. And who am i to say this but I dont think that stuff fits her jump, even though i believe in the left, i dont think its for her and i think it will show. All i know is some people can jump right or jump high, and some can do both

[Kirk]

This summer we have worked on getting the trail leg back futher and one big difference is that u do have to drive ur chest to get that trail leg back there. When my trail leg was short so was my chest arch.

That's exactly what I was trying to say! Kyle, I think we're starting to communicate! It's not easy to explain a complex event like the vault with just text!

You obviously realize that your technique from several years ago, and several feet lower, is not the same as your current technique.

What's important is your perception/thoughts as you're jumping today - not what you're actually doing. If you FOCUS on pressing the bottom arm, then that's what you'll do, and if you FOCUS on driving the chest forwards, then sooner or later - on your good jumps - you'll drive the chest forwards.

On the page that Advath posted (Tom Parker pic), have a look at the side-by-side comparison of Bubka and Donovan Kilmartin. It explains what I'm advocating.

The photos on that page also show several vaulters where their top hand is lower than their bottom hand during the swing phase. (One in particular shows the track lines directly behind the pole - presumably the horizontal.) That's true of 16'+ pole-vaulters, but should NOT be true of <15' pole-riders. However, my point about this is also related to how you focus your thinking. There's absolutely nothing to be gained while in the middle of a vault about focussing on getting your bottom hand higher than your top hand. That's only an observation that might be made later, by analyzing videos or stills. Don't even think "big bend". Just think "drive forward; penetrate chest, stretch top hand; stretch takeoff leg back;" etc.

You never responded to my questions about your ht, wt, speed, etc, re my question about raising your grip. If you'd like to post those particulars (or email me), I'd be happy to discuss that issue further. Seems to me that if you want to break 18', you have the capability to do it by raising your grip 18", but not by increasing your handstand by another 18".

Oh - one last point. When I referred to "collapsing" the bottom arm, what I really meant to say is to "relax" the bottom arm (ie. don't stiffen it). Collapsing infers that the arm will bend. However, in practice, what happens is that the pole will bend before the arm collapses, giving the effect that the arm is always almost straight. This is especially important for beginners, who are anxious to apply a force with the bottom arm to bend the pole. They are always suprised when they see that the bend comes from the fulcrum at the top hand.

Happy vaulting!

Kirk Bryde

[KYLE ELLIS]

I am 6-0ft 173lbs and run about a 11.8 to 11.9 110m( i know im slow!). Im not sure why my grip is that low maybe cause im that slow? I just did what my coach told me to, I was gripping 14-2 but it was bending to much( in the handle) and wasnt rolling over, I might be able to move it up a little? But it feels right at 13-10. I think in competition i would raise it a little, from 16 steps before the summer I was gripping 14-10 and jumping 16ft, so Im not sure where i can grip from 16 and what pole i would jump on and where i would hold?

[Kirk]

... from 16 steps before the summer I was gripping 14-10 and jumping 16ft, so Im not sure where i can grip from 16 and what pole i would jump on and where i would hold?

I was 6-0 174. Don't know my speed, my sundial never worked on cloudy days. Actually, I've never run 100m. We were timed at 40m, but I don't remember my time. But I'm sure it would be > 11.9 100m. Did you mean 100m or 110m? (11.9 110m is quite fast!) At any rate, we seem to have same body build & similar lack of speed.

I did 15-9 with 13-9 grip and 9-step run, so I know the timing of what you did recently at 16-6. At the risk of stating the obvious, your progression to higher heights needs to correspond with raising your grip and your pole weight. Based on what you've told me, I have no doubt that you can clear 18-1/2 within a few years. It's just a matter of slowing raising your grip and pole size as you improve your technique and drive on takeoff.

Notice that I didn't say "improve your speed". It goes without saying that that would be good, but it's also the one parameter that you have the least amount of control over. You need to work on your speed, but you'll never make a *dramatic* improvement in speed, so you need to look elsewhere for a bigger bang for the buck. That elsewhere starts with the takeoff. It doesn't matter how fast your run is - just your speed on takeoff! (Again stating the obvious.)

And once you leave the ground, foot-speed (or even take-off speed) doesn't matter, but there's loads of things you can do technique-wise to hit the sky. You've already learned many of them, but trust me when I say you still have lots of room for improvement.

I'm sure that you can grip 15-0 or even 15-6 (you say you've already gripped 14-10), which should easily put you over 18+. The trick is to move your grip and your pole wt up slowly, as you improve your technique. And since you went DOWN from 14-10 to 13-10 (presumably to improve your technique), you really need to move UP very, VERY slowly (never sacrificing technique for grip or pole size).

You always need the "next pole up" ready in your bag, ready to use the same day you have a technique breakthru, tailwind, or whatever. Keep at least 3 pole sizes, and try to stay on the middle one most of the time. Just use the weakest one for warmups and if you're having a bad day, but still need to clear a decent ht.

That means trade your weakest pole in for a stronger one as soon as you move up from your middle one. Don't wait until you desperately need a stronger pole, or you'll miss your chance to use it on the day you need it the most. This pole progression strategy might cost a few $$$ but it's well worth the expense if you're a serious vaulter.

So I hope that answers your questions about what pole and what grip to use.

Kirk Bryde